Does your religion teach that it is the only right path?

[Polly]

:amen As in spiritually. What does your religion say about other faiths? Do you accept your religion's stance on other religions?

Blessed Be,

Polly

[MistressAndMaid]

I'm Catholic, and I must say that my priest is incredibly tolerant of other religions. However, when I got Charlotte baptised, her Godparents absolutely had to be Catholic. No ifs, ands or buts. I also don't like his attitude towards homosexuals, but as far as other religions, he doesn't see them as the opposition as such.

[Lori]

My church is very tolerant and respectful of other religions. Christianity as a whole, obviously, hits the whole spectrum in terms of tolerance. Personally, I think that God reaches different people in different ways. I don't think that all religions are all true, or equally true, but I do think that all are paths that can lead to truth. If I didn't think that what I believe is the most true, I wouldn't believe it, but I also understand what I believe as experiential truth, rather than as absolute truth. That's not to say that I don't think that, when it comes to God, there is absolute truth--I think there is--but I think that when we are talking about religions, we are always going to be talking about truth in a more experiential sense. I think there are beliefs that are so contrary to our innate sense of what is good that we can say they are just wrong and damaging, but when it comes to most beliefs, I might think they are deeply flawed, but I don't think that holding deeply flawed beliefs keeps someone from seeking and knowing God. As a universalist, I believe that all people will be reconciled to God in some time and in some way, so in that sense, I don't believe there is any one "right" path, although some paths are probably better than others.

[Marzipan]

My religion does not teach that it is the right or only path. Judaism, in fact, actively discourages converts. The general philosophy is that the laws of Judaism are involved and complex, and very difficult for a person to follow. And because Judaism has no real concept of salvation, following the laws are not necessary for any kind of admission to a heavenly paradise. Judaism is pretty much of the philosophy that good, moral people of all faiths (or no faith at all) can achieve reward in olam haba, the World to Come.

[Christine]

Yes, my faith does teach that it's the only way as Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man comes to the Father but by me." It would be contrary to the Bible to teach it any other way and I, quite frankly, get annoyed by people that water down the message. You can be accepting of other people's right to believe whatever they choose. But to say that you believe that any way to God is the correct path is very contradictory to the Bible.

[wendygrace]

Our church teaches that your own experiential way is valid. Our church consists of nearly every "religion" out there and includes atheists and agnostics as well. We are each encouraged to keep seeking for "our truth" and they hold all kids of "classes". We're also encouraged to read texts (new and old testaments, philosophical books, other religions texts, etc) that interest us and history as well. Matter-of-fact, our minister is female, married and is a theist (much to my surprise) and our associate minister is a male, gay, pagan. :)

Not only do I accept our religions belief, but am embracing it. (We are new to this faith.) I love it. It gives me so much room to grow and so many people to talk to about theology and philosophy.

[Beryl]

I'm probably on the polar opposite side of the spectrum from Christine (but I hope we can agree to disagree with respect). My faith's first tenet is the responsible search for truth. The second is the inherent worth and dignity of every person. So we believe that there are myriad paths, not just Jesus, but that you are responsible for searching. You can't just sit back and have it explained to you without making sure it calls to your soul, that it is your truth. When you take this as a way of life, it's as hard as avoiding sin can be in Christianity. Many things reveal themselves as pretty universal, like impatience with children not part of my truth. And I fight with myself on this (more often than I am comfortable). So I have to strive to meet my own goals. And not for a promise of heaven, but because it is the best way to live. (this is overlapping into the other thread in Spirituality which goes more into the role of sin and salvation.)

I don't feel like I'm doing it justice in this description, for all that we've been going over it a lot recently as we prep for our baby dedication.

[Val]

Personally, no I don't believe that. The church we attend however, does teach that christianity is the only way.

This is an interesting subject for me, because I was once told by a couple from a certain church (I won't say which) that their church was NOT the only way to heaven, when I know all too well their church claims to be the only way to true salvation.

[Polly]

No, I don't believe in any right path. As a Wiccan, I figure that as long as your path is a positive one, God(dess)speed ahead. :D Actually, when I was a practicing Episcolpalin, they didn't seem to care either. When I was in Sunday school, I remember being taught about other faiths. For example, when my teacher was explaining the Catholic belief of purgatory, I just figured it was a different kind of line for Catholics to wait in before they got in to heaven!

Granted, I'm not too comfortable with absolutist beliefs that it's either their way or the highway. Oh, well, to each their own.

Polly

Polly

[Maleah]

Pretty much what Lori said. :)

[Kristen]

What Christine said. Christians who take the Bible to be in the inspired, inerrant word of God can't really believe anything else.

If your religion says it's the only way, then it'd be pretty odd to say that other religions are also valid routes. I don't see how I could possibly be expected to believe that, say, worshipping the earth(or any other religious belief) is also an acceptable alternative.

Now, I don't think my particular denomination is THE only church that teaches the truth. I think there are a bunch of denominations that fall within the pale of true Christianity(Baptists, Free Churches, some Methodists, OPS churches, to name a few). but, it's not like I think Buddhism or Wiccan thought and Hinduism or Islam or Mormonism or even the formal teachings of Catholicism are true(although I think there are true Christians in the Catholic church).

It's not a super popular thing to believe(at least not popular with people of other faiths), and I wish I could say I thought all paths led to God, but I can't honestly say I believe that.

[Lori]

as Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man comes to the Father but by me."

Christine, one way that sometimes people look at that quote is to ask if Jesus is saying that he IS the way to God or that he's IN the way to God. I do think that sometimes the idea that Jesus is the way to God gets interpreted to mean that Jesus is some sort of bouncer who is standing there with a club, keeping people who honestly and sincerely seek God from getting there until they say the magic words or accept the magic doctrine. To me, that's not what Jesus was saying or what he came to do.

I think some of it is just experiences, and how far the particular branch of Christianity allows people to trust their experiences, and to trust reason. I have known so many sincere, faithful Jews and Muslims and Buddhists that I just can't picture Jesus standing there with his arms crossed keeping them away from God until they profess the right beliefs. I know they are sincere in wanting to know God, and if they truly felt that Christianity was the way for them to get to God, they'd be Christians. They aren't rejecting Christianity out of a hatred for God or Jesus, or out of a desire to rebel, but because they honestly do not feel that that is the way for them to know God. I don't think there's anything incompatible with taking Jesus as the way to God very seriously but also taking seriously the experiences of others, who feel just as sure that their path leads to God as you do that yours does.

I guess my point is just that I don't know any Christians who believes in religious pluralism because they want to twist Bible teaching or don't care about Jesus, but because they feel the need to be true to God as they have experienced God, and to correct what they honestly believe are false teachings the church has held on to for too long.

[Kristen]

I take it to be teaching that the only way to God is through Jesus' sacrifice. Without his righteousness to cover our sins, we are not able to be in God's presence. But Jesus has covered our sins with His righteousness, and so when God looks at us, he sees the righteousness of His son, not our righteousness, which is as filthy rags.

I think the Bible teaches that there is no other covering for our sins other than the righteousness of Christ, and that's why He is THE way.

[Marzipan]

Yes, my faith does teach that it's the only way as Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man comes to the Father but by me." It would be contrary to the Bible to teach it any other way and I, quite frankly, get annoyed by people that water down the message . You can be accepting of other people's right to believe whatever they choose. But to say that you believe that any way to God is the correct path is very contradictory to the Bible.

Well, I don't know what you mean by "people that water down the message." It seems to me that someone having a different interpretation isn't necessarily watering things down, just looking at them another way. For example, a friend of mine is Christian and her interpretation of "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man comes to the Father but by me" is that in order to be saved, one must look to Jesus's life as an ideal example and to life one's life in accordance with the guidelines he set out. In her mind, anyone of any faith can go to heaven so long as they are following Jesus's teachings about what constitutes a righteous life. And after all, Jesus was a Jew and that is cerainly in line with the Jewish perspective on things.

I guess what I'm saying is that if there is a god, he or she has never really sat us all down and told us what to do. There's no morning meeting with god to keep things on clear footing every day. What we have are a bunch of people who believe that they have truly spoken with god and that they know the One True Way. But none of us have done so, and thus we can only read and interpret the things other people have told us about their conversations. Protestantism, as I understand it, is all about each person coming to Christianity in their own way and finding how it touches them personally.

I always thought C.S. Lewis did a good job with this perspective when he had Aslan speak to the Calormene soldier about Tash in "The Last Battle."

[Lori]

Well, I don't know what you mean by "people that water down the message." It seems to me that someone having a different interpretation isn't necessarily watering things down, just looking at them another way.

Where is the "yeah that" sign when you need it! That's what I was trying to say, only a lot more succintly. I don't think that having a different interpretation is watering things down.

[Christine]

Oh I knew I'd be the whipping boy on this one. ;)

First of all, I do respect other people's right to believe however they choose. I don't have to agree with you to respect you OR your right to believe. I do fully believe that the only way to God is through Jesus and His sacrifice.

I didn't put that quote in my post to be picked apart because it's really only one passage out of many that point to Christ and His sacrifice as being the way to Heaven. I was only using it to illustrate my point, not resting my entire belief system on one passage. But - I do rest my entire belief system on one book.

When I say "watering down" I'm referring to those that want to pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe in and still call themselves a Christian. I know this isn't a popular stance to take, so I'll choose my words carefully. Practically the entire New Testament is centered around Christ's resurrection. If you believe only that Jesus was a great prophet whose example we should follow, well then what was the point of the resurrection? If you believe that He wasn't raised, then you're choosing to ignore the entire NT. If you think Jesus was just a great man, then you must also believe He was a liar. When He spoke of BEING the resurrection, of BEING the way, of BEING the Father, he was either speaking the truth or lying. There's no in between.

If you choose to agree with parts of the Bible (like the golden rule, the ten commandments, etc.) more power to you. Most moral people would agree with those. But if you call yourself a Christian, then you're designating yourself as a follower of Christ. If you believe He was only a prophet, then He was a liar. If you believe He didn't rise from the dead, than you believe that the NT is a bunch of lies. But if, like me, you take it in its entirety as the truth, there is no other way to heaven but through the death and resurrection of the living Christ.

My path is not through a church or a denomination, but through the Bible. I don't allow someone else to tell me what to believe, but seek out the truth for myself. It IS about my experience as I've experienced God and how He reminds me every single day about His awesome power and grace. This isn't a stale religion, but a living, breathing, growing and evolving relationship.

I know that I'm not expressing myself as fully as I'd like, but I hope I addressed the things that were brought up against my first post. :)

[Marzipan]

I hate to think you feel you're a whipping boy, Christine! I'm not trying to attack, just to explain why I believe that people can interpret Christ's messages in many ways. Most Jews think that Christians pick and choose what to follow, since they don't adhere to the Levitical laws. But, in the context of your interpretation of god's will, you are following the laws to his specifications.

I think there's a wide gulf between assumimg that Christ was a liar/the New Testament is a pack of lies and reading things as allegory and metaphor and taking them in the context of the time. My religion, for example, believes Jesus was a heretic and most Orthodox Jews will not even utter his name. I prefer to think of Jesus as a reformer. I like a lot of his messages, I think he had the right idea, and I think the Pharisees were probably highly corrupt, pompous assholes. I commend Jesus (as a historical figure) for his courage. I don't think he was a prophet, but I also don't think he was a liar. I think he was a wise, good, decent man with strong convictions who did the best he could to spread his message.

[Lori]

Christine, I'm sorry if you were meant to feel like a whipping boy/girl/person. ;) I certainly didn't intend that. I just don't feel as if my beliefs are at all "watered-down." I believe what I believe because it is what I think is true, not because it's what I want to be true, but because it's what I believe is actually true. So I don't see my own beliefs as any more "watered-down" than any other interpretation of the Bible or the teachings of Jesus.

I may not agree with the content of other people's beliefs, but I wouldn't take issue with their commitment to God or their faith based on them. I just get a bit bristled when I feel that people who don't hold to certain beliefs aren't given the same consideration, because I've never known a person of any faith who held the beliefs they did out of anything other than a sincere commitment to knowing God and to seeking truth.

[Jenny]

see this is why I can't be a full-hearted Christian. I truly believe that you can live a life in the right path without believing that Jesus is the only way.

Eventhough I don't consider myself anything, I am more in line with what Lori said and what Wiccan's believe.

I just can't imagine God being so judgemental at the end of the day to say that people who lead a good life, following the core values of Christianity, but choose not to believe that Jesus is the only right path, to judge them and say that they didnt live life on the right path. Whoa..that was confusing, lol

[Christine]

The comment about the whipping boy wasn't really a direct reference to this thread, but to the pattern of my online "life", so to speak. It's not always easy to take an unpopular path and have these kinds of discussions when no one can see my face or hear my voice. So I take a big sigh, roll up my sleeves and try again to share my faith without offending, but still staying true.

I understand what you're saying about the Levitical laws and all that. That's something we're actually studying in my weekly Bible study right now and I'm finding it very interesting. The way I understand it, the OT laws are pointing towards the Messiah. It wouldn't make sense for me to make temple sacrifices, for example, if I believe that Jesus has made the ultimate sacrifice. Actually, it would be blasphemous for me to do that, given my faith.

As for the allegory and metaphor, I know that people read the Bible that way and I respect that. It's still an amazing work, even if you don't take it literally as I do. But I don't believe that a true Christian should be picking and choosing or reading it as such. When Jesus wanted to tell a parable, He told you He was going to tell a parable.

I do find it interesting that we're approaching this from two very different viewpoints. As I said, I totally respect your right to believe what you do. But it wouldn't make sense for me to say that I agree with what you believe since it is contrary to what I believe. So, we're agreeing to disagree. ;)

[Christine]

Lori - See that's exactly how *I* feel. You say that you believe what you do because you actually believe it to be true, not because you want it to be true. You don't how often I'm made to feel that what I believe is out of some "need" for a God, when in reality I am also believing what I do because I honestly see it as truth, not what I want to believe. I get very frustrated by the implication that a person who believes as I do is just not understanding it in the right context or studying it enough, because I study it very thoroughly and don't take my faith or the study of my faith lightly at all.

Jenny - I'm so sorry that I'm representing my faith in a way that would make you feel ill towards God! As I just expressed in another post, I don't see it the same way you do. I hear often that people think God is cruel for turning people away. But, He doesn't turn people away - we turn our backs on Him! He's ready to take anyone in who is willing, the choice is ours to make.

[Lori]

But I don't believe that a true Christian should be picking and choosing or reading it as such. When Jesus wanted to tell a parable, He told you He was going to tell a parable.

But everyone picks and chooses. Jesus told one guy that to be saved he had to be born again, and yet many Christians choose to believe that that is the way for everyone to be saved. Jesus told another guy that he had to sell everything he owned in order to be saved, and yet I see very few Christians arguing that that piece of advice applies to everyone. One is taken literally as the only way to salvation; the other is something we've decided we don't need to take seriously.

And everyone chooses how to interpret things. "No one comes to the Father except through me" can be taken in so many ways. It could mean that Jesus won't let anyone get to God who doesn't profess faith in him. It could mean that the Way that Jesus incarnates is the Way to God, no matter if the person following it knows Jesus' name or not. It could mean that Jesus is, in a way that is simply a mystery, involved in the spiritual lives of all people seeking God, whether they know or acknowledge him or not. I don't think that just because the first interpretation is the most popular necessarily means that it is more true or more valid than any other.

I do completely understand that everybody believes what they believe because they believe it is true. So, I'm not going to say that anyone shouldn't hold belief A or belief B, because I can only imagine that they are deriving that belief from their own, very real experiences with God. I don't understand why so many people can come away from what they feel are very real experiences with God with so many different ideas, but I'd rather err on the side of assuming that it's because the truth is simply too big for any of us to know in full and so God gives us the part he wants us to have, and we do the best we can to bring that to the world where maybe we can make some sense out of all the pieces, than to make judgments about who is or is not being misled or mistaken.

[Christine]

I don't base what I believe on what is popular.

Jesus' message didn't change. He met each person where they were and approached them with what they needed to hear. Nicodemus was missing one crucial understanding and that was in regards to the renewal that comes through faith in the Christ. The rich man wanted to follow, but didn't understand sacrifice. Jesus knew what price was too high for him and so that's where he tested him and the poor man failed miserably. He meets us each where we are and in the way we need to be reached. For some people, He meets us when we're at our lowest point, some people find Him through seeking the truth and others when life is wonderful and they see God's glory. It's a relationship and not a static religion.

I believe in the entire Bible and the Bible as a whole picture.

[wendygrace]

Christine, I have an honest question for you here. Are you not also "picking and choosing" the books you wish to read since you choose to read (I am assuming) only the books that the Nicene (sp?) chose to include under Constantinople's rule? There are so many books that were left out that I have a hard time reading just the Bible. Some that we may never even know about.

[Christine]

I fully believe that God has kept His word complete and whole and that the books that were not included at that time were not meant to be included.

[Polly]

Actually, Christine, there is a half-way, at least from the Wiccan perspective. If I, as a Wiccan, choose Jesus and Mary as my patheon representatives of the Mother and Son with God the Father (and I do, by the way!:D) then I can't consider Him a liar. Impossible. FYI-the religions that do believe Jesus was a prophet, like Islam, believe in His divine and Immaculate birth, and his resurrection and ascendance into Heaven. Of course, muslims also believe Mohammed ascended into Heaven too, from the Dome of the Rock aka Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

I have tremendous respect for Jews for Jesus. They seem to be the only practioners (next to Coptic Christians) of what Jesus was really trying to do-reform Judiasm. They keep kosher and circumcise their male children 8 days after birth and all male converts. :eek As I recall, just because the old covenant was broken (meaning Jews weren't the only chosen people anymore) early followers of Jesus did not give up Jewish practices of celebrating Jewish holidays, kosher, and circumcision. They just believed Jesus was showing them what the Old Testment and the Talmud originally described in how Jews should live their lives in a moral and ethical sense.

Unfortunately for the early Christians, these practices died off when Rome embraced Christianity under Constantine. Romans historically had always done a great job of taking other cultures religions and re-molding them for Roman needs. For example, kosher. Pork was a great, cheap, easy-to-raise and transport meat. So no more prohibitions about Kosher. Also, Jews were historically considered second-class citizens by native Romans. So there was an intrinsic prejudice of Jewish customs. The Romans, according to St. Augustine and St. Paul, did not continue these customs when they converted to Christianity-Hey! They even gave it a new name! It wasn't Jesus's new, purified Judiaism. Nope-now it was Christianity. From a historian's standpoint , (dusting off my B.A. in History here) it is very common for a culture adapting a religion from another culture to change rituals and beliefs to some degree. It helps to create a feeling of seperateness (example: I'm Roman, not Jewish, but I'm Christian) which is endemic to promoting cultural beliefs in superioty. Or Nationalism, as the modern world would know it. (Yes, I know I'm talking about religions so there shouldn't be any feelings involving religious superioty but history proves this to be the case, most of the time. The Romans changed the Greek pantheon and added practices to it to make it more in line with traditional Roman values, stoicism, honor, etc.)

Blessed Be,

Polly

:deadhorse

[Lori]

I don't base what I believe on what is popular.

I don't think you do. I think you base what you believe on what you think is true, and I do think that you base your sense of what is true on very real experiences of and with God. I just wanted to be clear that I don't base my beliefs on what is popular, either. I base what I believe on what I feel to be true based upon my own very real experiences of and with God. If God led me to believe that the Muslims and Jews and pagans and Buddhists I know are misled or wrong, then I would believe that. However, that's not the way that I've experienced God. I trust my own experiences of and with God more than I trust a specific interpretation of the Bible, just as I'm sure you do the same. I would be lying, and lying about God, if I were to say that I believe that only those who profess faith in Jesus can know God. For me to say that would be blasphemy, because that is not what God has shown me, or the way that the spirit has led me to understand the Bible and Jesus' life and teachings. Like I said, I don't understand how so many people sincerely and honestly seeking truth can come to so many different conclusions. But I don't doubt the sincerity of the individuals who are seeking.

[Marzipan]

I have tremendous respect for Jews for Jesus. They seem to be the only practioners (next to Coptic Christians) of what Jesus was really trying to do-reform Judiasm. They keep kosher and circumcise their male children 8 days after birth and all male converts. :eek As I recall, just because the old covenant was broken (meaning Jews weren't the only chosen people anymore) early followers of Jesus did not give up Jewish practices of celebrating Jewish holidays, kosher, and circumcision. They just believed Jesus was showing them what the Old Testment and the Talmud originally described in how Jews should live their lives in a moral and ethical sense.


I'm going to disagree rather vehemently here. I take HUGE issue with the Jews for Jesus and find the whole thing rather disgraceful. It's like having a group called "Hindus for Buddha." Shakyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) was a Hindu reformer. If you accept everything he says and accept his views as truth, you are a Buddhist. You may be a Buddhist with strong ties to Buddhism's Hindu origins who also celebrates many Hindu rites, but you are a Buddhist nonetheless.

Jews do not believe in Jesus beyond him being a historical figure. I mentioned this in another thread, but many Jews consider him a heretic and a blasphemer. I don't, but the idea of Jews for Jesus (at least the name) is utterly ridiculous.

[Lori]

see this is why I can't be a full-hearted Christian. I truly believe that you can live a life in the right path without believing that Jesus is the only way.

IMO, I think it's fully possible to believe that Jesus is God, and that Jesus is the way to God, without having to invalidate other faiths. Because, when you get right down to it, it's all mystery. It's faith, not reason. So while reason might say that A and B can't both be true, in faith, why can't that be the case? If Jesus can be both God and man, and life can be death and death life, then why can't Jesus be both the only way to God and not the only way?

I think that faith is, at heart, experiential. Anyone will tell you that you cannot understand the truth of their faith until you jump in and believe it. And, everybody will tell you that. Just like many Christians would say that somebody can't dismiss Christianity as untrue because only believers can really understand the truth, followers of other religions will say similar things. So I can sort of see how I can experience my spiritual path as the only truth path--and that might be the case, because it might very well be the only way for me to know God--but still understand that in an absolute sense, other ways may also be true.

Which is to spend a long time saying that there are many, many Christians who don't believe that other religions are wrong. Most mainline Protestant churches, as well as many Catholics, at least allow for the idea that people other than Christians can know God and can be saved.

[Polly]

Speaking of picking and choosing, remind me again how high and thick the staff described in the Old Testment is that I can beat my slaves with.

A smartass comment, I know. But I'm using it not to be mean but to demostrate why people pick and choose. Some ideas are not very good-I also remember Lot, who in the Old Testment, was judged by God to be the only good man in the city of Sodom. Yet when the disguised angels turned up on his doorstep seeking shelter from the city mob that wanted to ...well...SODOMIZE them, Lot tells the mob that if they will leave the men (disguised angels) alone, the mob can "have" aka rape Lot's daughters. Nice guy. Hey, I still can't believe that it's his WIFE who gets turned into a pillar of salt.

However, I digress. Yes, everyone picks and chooses to some degree in all religions. Why? Humans aren't perfect and can't figure out how to reconcile everything since a alot of it seems contradictory and imperfect. These choices are part of what matters most in the end-your personal faith and the way you live up to it. This is where the whole right path thing comes in-people who disagree with what you pick and choose. :amen

Blessed Be,

Polly

[Polly]

Mazipan-I agree with you from the Jewish perspective. I'm saying I respect them based on the early Christian perspective. Mainly, they, unlike the subsequent churches/denominations stuck with the original message rather than straying farther and farther until it was a completely different faith-and Jesus never intended it to be. Yes, I'm well aware of how Jesus is regarded by most Jews. Hey-I don't blame them. By the way, kudos on a great
analogy-the Buddha and Hindu one. It's always bracing (and I mean it) to have someone to argue repectfully and intelligently with over history!:thankyou

Blessed Be,

Polly

[Marzipan]

Well, thanks all around, Polly. I agree that I'd probably have a great deal of respect for them if they had a different name. The Jews for Jesus moniker seems so disrespectful to both faiths and incredibly wishy-washy to boot.

Namaste. ;)

[Lori]

I just want to add, I do think it's important to note that most Christians who believe that their faith is the only path to God really, really want other people to join them on it. So it's not like they are saying that they have the only path to God, then sitting there snickering while other people head on to hell. They really, truly want others to find Jesus the way that they found Jesus. And while I may personally disagree with the theology behind it, I can't disagree with the sentiment, because if you honestly believe that anyone who doesn't share your faith can't be saved, then you really only have two options. You can just be glad you're saved and not care about anyone else's eternal fate, or do your best to share your faith with others. And I can't fault anybody for doing their best to share their faith with others, because it is a good, loving impulse driving that. It's the people who think non-Christians are going to hell and then do nothing but be glad of their own salvation that worry me. I think that most Christians who believe that theirs is the only right path do as good a job as they possible can of being respectful of other people's right to believe as they wish while still trying to convey their very real concern for their eternal fate. I imagine that is a very difficult position to be in, and I cannot fault anyone who is trying to bring others to what they believe is the only way to God, when that belief is as real to them as my own beliefs are to me.

[Jenny]

Jenny - I'm so sorry that I'm representing my faith in a way that would make you feel ill towards God! As I just expressed in another post, I don't see it the same way you do. I hear often that people think God is cruel for turning people away. But, He doesn't turn people away - we turn our backs on Him! He's ready to take anyone in who is willing, the choice is ours to make.

I don't feel that way towards God. I believe in God and have a good relationship with him/her. BUT I also believe that there are other paths to get there, not just through the salvation of Jesus. That is why I can't be a Christian, because I don't believe that. I have the uttermost respect for followers like yourself, who have such a passion for Christ...honesty, Christine.

I am just not there. I am not one to talk about religion that often, because I am fine with what I do in life and believe in. This is a prime example of that.

[Kristen]

Some ideas are not very good-I also remember Lot, who in the Old Testment, was judged by God to be the only good man in the city of Sodom. Yet when the disguised angels turned up on his doorstep seeking shelter from the city mob that wanted to ...well...SODOMIZE them, Lot tells the mob that if they will leave the men (disguised angels) alone, the mob can "have" aka rape Lot's daughters. Nice guy. Hey, I still can't believe that it's his WIFE who gets turned into a pillar of salt.


Yes, and King David hired a hit man. ;) and Jephtha sacrificed his daughter. Things people did over the course of history are not didactical teaching, and it's a mistake to take it as such. Just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't mean that that behavior is approved of.

You have to take historical books in the Bible as they are...history. You read them differently than you do, say, a Pauline epistle. You can come up with some very poor theology if you interpret historical books as teaching books. :giggle

and Lot's wife didn't turn to salt for her part(be it silence or whatever) in offering up the daughters...she turned to salt for disobeying the command to not look back. I don't know why Lot didn't get a nasty punishment for throwing his daughters out to those men, I really don't(or why I've lied and not died like Ananias and Sapphira). But I don't think the principles taught elsewhere in the Bible condone his behavior at all.

[Kristen]

Also, I think Jews for Jesus call themselves such because they are Jews by race(at least the ones that have visited our church were definitely of Jewish descent). I'm not sure what the problem is with themselves referring to themselves as they do.

One can certainly convert to Judaism, but the word "Jew" can also be used to refer to race. and a Jew descended from Jews will be a Jew(in the race sense) until they die, regardless of their religious views.

[Marzipan]

Well, yes, but in this context it seems to me that the purpose is to distinguish themselves as members of the Jewish faith who support the teachings of Christ as truth. It irks me that they both identify themselves as Jews and as followers of Christ. If you are a follower of Christ in a religious sense, you are a Christian. You cannot be Jewish in a religious sense if you do so, even if you consider yourself Jewish from a heritage perspective. I know I'm not articulating this well, so hopefully someone else will come help me out.

[Lori]

I think of Jews for Jesus in the context of other religions. I was raised Catholic. If I convert to Hinduism, I'm not going to be a Catholic for Vishnu. Well, I suppose I could be. But, chances are I'm not. Chances are I'm not rethinking both Catholicism and Hinduism to come up with someone new. In the case of Jews for Jesus, my understanding is that most people who believe that way are followers of evangelical Christianity. Personally, I tend to see the ethnicity as Israeli and the religion as Judaism, the way I'd say that my ethnic background is Italian and my religious background is Catholic. Catholicism has a good deal of culture surrounding it, but in the end it is a religion, not an ethnicity, and I see Judaism the same way.

I do believe that some religions are compatible. I do believe people who say they are Jewish Buddhists or Christian Buddhists are finding ways to have both faiths work in harmony, and given the content of both faiths, I think it's possible. But, I don't think Judaism and Christianity are compatible in that way. Judaism believes that the Messiah is yet to come; Christianity believes the Messiah has come.

I personally can't say I have a problem with anybody who wants to claim to still be Jewish even though they believe Jesus is the Messiah, but I also can't fault the Jewish community for rejecting that claim.

My understanding of the main issue people have with Jews for Jesus, though, is just with it being deceptive marketing. As far as I know, the group was not founded by Jews, but by evangelical Christians, as an evangelism effort aimed at Jewish people. And, I can completely understand why, given the history of Jewish-Christian relations, Jewish people don't take too kindly to Christians trying to convert them, even if it's being done with the best of intentions.

[Marzipan]

Many thanks to Lori for articulating things so well.

[Lori]

Thanks. I actually feel very unsure about this topic, because I certainly am not the best person to be drawing lines about who's "in" and who's "out" when it comes to religion.

But I do think that when it comes to religions as closely related as Judaism and Christianity, small differences matter. It would be like someone saying they are a Christian for Mohammed. If I believe that Mohammed is the last prophet and the most complete revelation from God, then I'm not a Christian, because the name for people who hold that set of beliefs is Muslim. Just because my heritage may be Christian doesn't mean that I'm a Christian. I do think that there is a lot of room within religions for a diversity of beliefs, but at a certain point, you've moved completely into the realm of another faith. I think that viewing Jesus as anything more than a teacher would move a person out of Judaism and into Christianity.

I also think that there's a difference between secular Jews and people with a Jewish heritage who convert to another religion. Most secular Jews, as far as I know, haven't renounced Judaism or converted to another faith. They are just non-practicing, the way that many Catholics are non-practicing. But that's different from taking the step of either actively renouncing the religion or converting to another religion. In that case, you're no longer a non-practicing member of that religion, you are part of another religion altogether.

[Jejune]

The more I read about Judaism, the more Jewish I felt, the more I became infuriated with the Jews for Jesus.
Judaism believes that the Messiah is yet to come; Christianity believes the Messiah has come.

This is very true, but more than that, many modern Jews have come to see the Messiah as something other than a literal guy, having been burned by a series of false Messiahs (and from a Jewish perspective, that does include Jesus of Nazareth). I won't deny that there are Jewish people who still believe a Messiah will come as a person, but that's certainly not true of all religious Jews.

Actually, a lot of this is reflected in Yiddish idiom. The very language has terms that show what Jewish culture thinks of the claims of Jesus. I think that's part of why you can't be a Jew for Jesus. You've rejected more than Jewish religion, but also Jewish culture if you're truly for Jesus.

[Desirae]

I don't have anything to add to what's been said but I still wantedto answer.;)

Yes, ditto to Kristen (K) and Christine.

[Lori]

The more I read about Judaism, the more Jewish I felt, the more I became infuriated with the Jews for Jesus.

I guess the main conflict I feel about debates over Jews for Jesus is that, on the one hand, people who would argue for pretty strict boundaries about who is or is not a Christian seem very willing to say that Jews for Jesus can be Jewish, whereas people who are normally very willing to accept a good deal of theological diversity end up saying that they aren't Jewish. I can't say I have any personal problem with an individual wanting to be or feeling they are both Jewish and Christian. Obviously there are children, for example, who grow up in multifaith homes who feel just that (which I realize is totally different from what Jews for Jesus are). But I also can completely understand why the large Jewish community would not want to include Jews for Jesus as a part of their faith community.

I guess I just think that even if you tolerate large amounts of theological diversity, at a certain point, you simply aren't part of a faith community anymore, and in the end Judaism is a community of faith. As I mentioned before, I certainly allow a lot of latitude in what I'd consider "acceptable" Christianity, but if somebody were to tell me that they believed that Mohammed was the final and most complete prophet of God, then I'd probably say they'd fall outside the bounds of that. That's not necessarily a bad thing, of course, but it's just what is.

[Jejune]

Well, see, that's just it. I also don't see the point in saying you're one thing or another if you make the tent too big. I mean, I'm culturally more Catholic than Jewish, since I was raised as a Catholic. However, religiously, I'm not Catholic. But Christianity and Judaism really can't mix, though Judaism and Buddhism can, because the most basic tenets of Christianity and Judaism are in conflict, even though Christianity comes from a Jewish root.

[Beryl]

I'm just popping in to say, Good Thread! and to notice that Christine kinda dropped out. I just wanted to give her a shout out that I really appreciated her sharing her beliefs. It's not easy, especially when you think the current forum is going to sway in the other direction. I think everyone has been really civil, but this topic can very easily make someone feel ousted.

I deeply respect folks who believe, deeply believe. If you have one true path, more power to ya! If that means you can't believe I'm ok too, well, that a bummer, but I'm kinda used to it by now. So long as we can go on without actively harming each other (read the news: that seems pretty hard), I'll bet we are both following our 'right' paths.

[gr8mommy]

I believe each person has their one true path, and mine is through Christ. I think there are good people who haven't found a path through Him, but are following His principles in the way they live their lives. I also think there are people who profess to love or follow Him, yet live their lives without regard to His teachings.