So, what about lust?

[Kristen]

Christian, atheist, agnostic, Wiccan, whatever...what is your take on lust?(defined as unrestrained sexual craving for someone other than your spouse). Do you think it's a big deal or not? why?

I already said quite a bit about it on the homosexuality thread, and talking about it there made me wonder what you all think.

[Lori]

I think it depends. It's another one of those things I'd leave up to the individual. I think it's absolutely possible for lust to get in the way of someone's relationship with their spouse, their relationship with God, and their relationship with other people. In that case, I'd say it's a big deal.

I also think it's possible for someone to indulge in sexual fantasies about someone other than their spouse and not having it get in the way of any of those relationships, especially when there is absolutely no desire to act on the fantasies.

And it's certainly possible that, for any given person, some lust is sinful/wrong and some is not. It depends on the effect it has on their relationships.

In my own life, there have been times when I've lusted and I would say that that lust was sinful. Other times, I've lusted and it was lust that I really don't think was a problematic thing. It depends on how long it goes on for, who it is about, how it makes me feel about my relationship with Sean, why I'm feeling that way, and a lot of other things.

[Jejune]

Defined as unrestrained, I have issues with lust, but I tend to think of lust as a craving, often stifled. I don't think we control our feelings of lust, and I don't think there's anything wrong with having feelings. It's what we do with them. I have cravings for foods that aren't very healthy, and I can often stifle those. People who have no constraints on their cravings have problems apart from the cravings themselves. I think, like all feelings, lust should be examined and understood and put in place, and when it isn't that can also lead to problems.

[giffy]

I think you're right, Kristen. You can't stop your feelings, but what you do with them is up to you.

Left unchecked, even mildly lustful feelings can interfere with your relationships with your partner, children, whoever.

Lust is never an excuse, except if you're talking about giving in to lust for a new set of cookie cutters or muffin pans.;)

[Sam]

Well my feelings on this have changed a lot as I have changed and learned a lot of important life lessons,and it is one of my favourite subjects.

I am not sure if I am keeping on topic because I am unsure what parts you want to discuss,but hey,I am in a talkative mood tonight ;)

Obviously lust that you give into when you are in a relationship is wrong,been there done that,will never go there again. As for lust you don't give into I still have an issue with it that not many people IRL understand.

There is no room in our relationship for porn,erotica,strip clubs etc etc I do not think it is immoral but for MY relationship we are against it. We have a pact to never view porn,go to night clubs,strip clubs etc etc because A) we are too insecure but that is not the main reason. B) we don't agree with the whole porn industry (another debate) and C) I do not want him to get off on anyone else sexually. We both discussed this prior to us properly dating and both agreed that we have issues with it.

Again,just talking about me here. I think it is wrong to have sexual cravings for anyone else. I know feelings do surface but it is something that you can quickly ignore. For example,if I see a man and think sexual thoughts I try my best to push them out,I haven't had any lust for any other man since being with SO but that is what I would do if I ever do get any,and being human I am sure one day I will.

I gave into lust once and I will not let that happen with me and my current SO,and I will not let myself be put into situations where lust can get the better of me.

It is a potentially dangerous feeling that needs keeping in check and something that needs to be avoided as much as possible.

[Lori]

There is no room in our relationship for porn,erotica,strip clubs etc etc I do not think it is immoral but for MY relationship we are against it.

I can completely understand that. I think that people need to figure out, within their relationship and for themselves, what they are comfortable with.

But, as it relates to homosexuality, what I wouldn't want to see would be laws passed making it illegal for consenting adults to look at or make porn, work at or visit strip clubs, or in any other way get the government involved in what I think should be an issue left to the individual to make his or her own choices on. Obviously in situations where someone is being abused or mistreated, it's fine for some sort of government agency to step in, but when it's a matter of things that don't hurt anyone in a concrete way and that reasonable people differ in their opinions on, I would rather it be left to the individual to make that choice, and to not have someone who makes an unpopular choice be discriminated against.

I think prostitution is entirely immoral, and I'd consider it to be an immoral result of lust, but I honestly can't say I see any reason for it to be illegal. Regulated, yes, but because it is a transaction between two consenting adults, as morally wrong as I find it, I really can't find a reason to argue that someone who chooses to engage in that behavior shouldn't legally be able to.

Lust might be immoral, and it might not, depending on the situation, the person, and other factors, but in the end I think it comes down to a matter of conscience.

[Sam]

I agree Lori. I haven't read the other thread yet,looks like a good one :)

[Erika]

It really depends on how lust affects you and your relationships. I have lusted, still lust and will lust in the future. However, I have chosen to be in a monogamous relationship. That is our boundary. We aren't in an open or poly relationship so the lust we do end up feeling (outside of for each other of course) isn't acted on. So in this way, lust isn't a problem.

I do think it is normal to have lustful feelings and denying them can be harmful to the self. By saying that, I'm not talking about acting on them. But acknowledging them and finding a way to deal with them (maybe channelling them back into your relationship) is the way to go.

In the end though, we are not animals acting on instinct so while lust isn't immoral as such, acting on it without restraint or acknowledging the consequences is where the problem lies.

[Beka]

ohhh yes- what Erika said, entirely- i do believe it's healthy to lust but it's not always healthy to ones self esteem, self respect or relationships to act upon in indiscriminately.

[Kristi]

I agree with what Erika said. I mean I think it is a common occurence and not really something that you can prevent if it does happen. Yet you have the choice to act on it or not to.

[Kristen]

And it's certainly possible that, for any given person, some lust is sinful/wrong and some is not. It depends on the effect it has on their relationships.


I am curious how you interpret it when Jesus said that if you lust after someone else, it's like committing adultery in your heart with that other person. I'm assuming you don't think it's OK to commit adultery in your heart, as Jesus was saying that doing so is breaking the 7th commandment.

[Kristen]

To answer my original question :giggle, Steve and I DO think that lust is a big deal. Like I said in the other thread, the fleeting thoughts that pop into your heard are not lust...I think it's what you do with those thought(if you feed them and let them get comfy in your head, or if you do your best to rid yourself of them) that determines whether they are lust or not. When you don't restrain the sexual craving, then it's lust.

Because Jesus said that lust is breaking the 7th commandment, since it's commiting adultery in your heart, we take it seriously. So, Steve doesn't do the whole porn thing, I don't ogle movie stars, we don't watch movies with sex scenes in them, and so on, because we don't think it's glorifying to God. I don't mean that in a haughty way...I'm just trying to explain what this looks like for us. And besides, it's just the grace of the Lord helps us to be hungrier for His glory than we are for the stuff that feeds our lust. Oh, and we also have a busy sex life, because we like to :giggle and because God says that is a very good way to keep your mind and body faithful to your spouse. I know it sure helps me...if it's been a while since we've gotten busy, the guys in the Abercrombie and Fitch store in the mall are waaaay more tempting! LOL

[Lori]

I am curious how you interpret it when Jesus said that if you lust after someone else, it's like committing adultery in your heart with that other person. I'm assuming you don't think it's OK to commit adultery in your heart, as Jesus was saying that doing so is breaking the 7th commandment.

I really don't take that to mean that Jesus was saying that feelings or thoughts are necessarily wrong in themselves. In the context of the passage, I think what Jesus is trying to do is show that following a list of rules is not enough; righteous outward behavior doesn't mean that someone is a loving or just or righteous person. Right after the statement about lust being adultery, Jesus says that, if your right eye causes you to sin, you should tear it out, and that if your right hand causes you to sin, you should cut it off. But, I don't believe that those are statements to be taken literally. Jesus isn't actually advocating self-mutilation. Many people believe that visual stimuli causes men to sin, but I've never seen anyone tell men to remove their eyes so they won't. I take it as a "Stop that fighting in the backseat right now or I'm leaving you guys on the side of the highway" statement, which I think Jesus has a lot of. You know that your parents really aren't going to leave you on the side of the highway, because they love you, but you also know that they are really, really serious. It's a way to get your attention.

And I think that's what Jesus is doing. Just because you aren't actually cheating on your spouse doesn't mean you're necessarily being faithful in your marriage. But I don't think that that means that every instance of lust is an act of unfaithfulness, just that the listener needs to be alert that there's more to being a faithful partner than refraining from adultery. You can follow every one of whatever list of rules about being a good husband or wife you have, but just following the rules isn't enough, because what is in your heart matters.

[Kristen]

What positive fruit, then, do you see from giving in mentally to sexual cravings for another man? Does it bless and help your marriage? I have a hard time picturing it doing so.

When Jesus says that about cutting your eyeball out, I think the point he is making is that sin is something to be taken very, very seriously. That makes me more convinced that I should not at all be toying around with lust. It's interesting that it has the opposite effect on you. :giggle

The eyeball thing means that we sometimes do stuff other people would consider to be weird and extreme, in order to avoid tempting ourselves with lust...like, one of the reasons(among others) that we don't take our beach vacation in the summertime is because of all the scantily clad women plastered all over the beach at that time. Perhaps there are men out there who could go to the beach and not have a problem with lust, but Steve isn't one of them, and he'd rather miss out on July beach days then put himself in a place where he's tempted to sin.

[Shana]

Just because you aren't actually cheating on your spouse doesn't mean you're necessarily being faithful in your marriage. But I don't think that that means that every instance of lust is an act of unfaithfulness, just that the listener needs to be alert that there's more to being a faithful partner than refraining from adultery. You can follow every one of whatever list of rules about being a good husband or wife you have, but just following the rules isn't enough, because your heartwhat is in matters.Very well put :) (emphasis mine :) )

[Lori]

What positive fruit, then, do you see from giving in mentally to sexual cravings for another man? Does it bless and help your marriage? I have a hard time picturing it doing so.

I don't think it's a positive thing, just not necessarily a sinful thing. It may not be the most productive use of one's time, obviously, but at the same time, many other things that I wouldn't necessarily consider sinful aren't particularly productive.

When Jesus says that about cutting your eyeball out, I think the point he is making is that sin is something to be taken very, very seriously. That makes me more convinced that I should not at all be toying around with lust. It's interesting that it has the opposite effect on you.

I don't think that Jesus is saying that lust is something to take lightly. But, at the same time, I don't think taking lust seriously means that ALL lust is necessarily sinful, just that the individual needs to be aware that lust can be just as detrimental to a relationship as actual adultery.

I don't think that Jesus is staying that lust is actually equivalent to adultery. If that were the case, then it could be argued that Jesus was saying that lust was a valid reason for divorce, but I don't think many people who take seriously the teaching that adultery is (one of) the only ground(s) for divorce would argue that, just like one episode of adultery could be considered an acceptable grounds for divorce, one episode of your partner lusting after another person would also be an acceptable grounds for divorce. Jesus compares adultery and lust to show that our outward behavior isn't what makes us righteous, but I don't think that the idea is that instead of following a set of rules about outward behavior, now we have to follow a set of rules about our thoughts, and so thoughts X, Y, and Z are prohibited. I take the idea to be that we need to take our thoughts seriously because they say something about where our heart is, but I don't think that means that any specific kind of thoughts are necessarily sinful.

[Lori]

I was just thinking of an example to clarify the distinction I'm talking about.

I did want to emphasize that I don't think that lust, particulary when defined as unrestrained, is something to be taken lightly. I think that Jesus was saying that, when it comes time to take moral inventory, thoughts have to be included, and that means taking thoughts seriously. But, taking thoughts seriously doesn't mean, to me, that all lust is wrong.

I have absolutely had lustful thoughts I'd consider sinful. I teach college students, so many of my students are in their 20s. I've had times when I've had lustful thoughts about students (and here I'm talking about fleeting thoughts). If I indulged those thoughts, I would absolutely consider it sinful. Indulging those kinds of thoughts would absolutely have a negative impact on my relationship with that student, and probably with my other students. My role as a teacher means that I have certain responsibilities to my students, and if I were to dwell on lustful feeling about a student, I do believe that would get in the way of fulfilling those responsibilities. Those are, for me, entirely unacceptable thoughts, and I do not let myself dwell on them. I would be failing that student, and my other students, and my responsibility to my employer if I let those feelings and thoughts go unchecked. I feel the same way about lustful thoughts about friends (or the husbands/partners of friends). Being a friend to someone means certain things, and indulging in lustful thoughts would keep me from being a good friend.

But, I don't consider it sinful to, say, read an erotic short story and revel while I'm reading it in the feelings it brings up. I would consider that about morally equivalent to watching a horror movie and revelling, for the 90 minutes you're watching the movie, in being scared. I think that enjoying certain normally unpleasant or dangerous or "forbidden" emotions in a controlled setting can be perfectly morally acceptable behavior. Now, if I were using erotica to fulfill sexual needs that I should be fulfilling in my relationship, I would consider that wrong. In the same way, I don't consider it sinful to just enjoy feeling a little thrill of pleasure at seeing an extremely good-looking man. If I kept thinking about that man and allowed a fantasy life to build up around him that was making me feel negatively about my spouse because he didn't measure up, then that I would consider sinful.

But I just wanted to clarify, hopefully more concretely, that by saying that I don't believe all lust is sinful, I'm not saying that I don't think lust is something to take seriously. I don't think that because some lust is morally acceptable or morally neutral, I should just indulge in lustful feeling indiscriminately. But when it comes time for moral reflection, I'm probably not going to end up lumping all lustful thoughts into the same category.