View Full Version : Arkansas Couple Has 17th Child
Polly
08-03-2007, 11:07 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_fe_st/17_kids
I can't figure out if they like sex or kids. Maybe a little bit of both. :wink
Polly
Erika
08-03-2007, 11:11 AM
:rofl Polly. I am amazed at her energy.
She has now matched both of James' grandmothers in the number of children she has given birth to (both of them had 17 children). But she still has a way to go before she beats James' great grandmothers total of 25 children!
I'm kind of thinking they like attention and being different. ;)
I really don't know much about them, but my issue with the Duggars is that they seem to imagine they are morally superior to everybody else because they have 17 kids. I'm sorry, but the only reason they can have 17 kids and have all of them survive into adulthood is because most people in our society have 1 or 2 kids. They can reap the benefits of being an oddity. They get enormous amounts of donations, which is how they manage to survive.
In societies where people routinely have extremely large families, the life expectancy is greatly reduced and childhood mortality rates are horrendously high. They are able to have 17 healthy kids because generations of people having far fewer children has allowed our society to advance to where it has, and because people have fewer children allows others to have the resources to provide for this family.
But to imagine that they are somehow morally superior to everybody is absurd, and to imagine that it would be better if more people followed their lead is ridiculous, which is my issue with them. If they want 17 kids, go right ahead and have them, but be thankful that the vast majority of other people aren't, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive the way they do. It would be a social and ecological disaster if everybody lived like them, and I don't like that they promote that. If they want to have as many kids as they can, that's fine with me, but when they get involved with politics and want to limit other people's access to birth control (which the husband has), then that's just wrong.
Erika
08-03-2007, 11:14 AM
I have to say though, I just can't get past the "all J names" and especially the name Jinger.
Christal
08-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Ah the Duggars.
I see them on TLC all the time. I don't know what to make of the situation really. I have to agree with Lori though, I think they like the attention, and they do seem to have a "higher than thou" attitude.
Polly
08-03-2007, 11:38 AM
Maybe they are trying to start a football team!
Polly
Erika
08-03-2007, 11:41 AM
two football teams LOL
I have also seen them on TLC. In fact I remember watching when they were building their home and she was pregnant with the last child. Now, I homeschool my 4 kids, but there is no way in hell I would homeschool that many! I can't imagine how she does it. I also remember there being another family close to them that had a huge amount of kids too and they always get together and hang out. I don't know how she handles it all and manages to never yell or scream lol
To each their own I guess lol
Christal
08-03-2007, 12:24 PM
I have 2 (two) children, and I don't go one day without yelling at one of them, so I dont know HOW she does it. Is there some kind of drug that exists that gives you super-human patience? Sign me up.
Danielle
08-03-2007, 12:24 PM
I hear you Christal!
ColleenC
08-03-2007, 12:43 PM
I have 2 (two) children, and I don't go one day without yelling at one of them, so I dont know HOW she does it. Is there some kind of drug that exists that gives you super-human patience? Sign me up.
LOL That's what I was wondering too. I barely have enough patience for my two much less 15 more!
She yells at her kids, I'm sure. If they had me on videotape 24 hours a day, if they were to splice the footage into 1 hour covering the whole week, they could make me look like anything from the most patient, gentle, nurturing, engaging mother in the whole world, to the most angry, impatient, neglectful, nasty mother in the whole world.
They have an agenda they want to push, which is that everybody should have as many children as they are biologically capable of having. They tried it through politics (with his role as a legislator), and now I think they are trying to persuade the public through presenting themselves as the perfect family. But, we'd look like the perfect family, too, if the right footage from our week was put out there. I'm not buying that this woman never yells, I'm not buying that the children aren't put in the position of being emotionally neglected far more often than the average child, and I'm not buying that the older children aren't being asked to bear the burden of parenting the younger children (as opposed to just helping out like most older siblings do).
I really would have no problem with this family if they weren't pushing their whole "quiverful" ideology, but I don't like them turning their children into PR pieces for their anti-family planning agenda, and that makes me suspicious of pretty much everything about them.
To each their own- one good friend of mine recently had her 10th- she had one graduate university the year her youngest was born, another good friend is currently pregnant with her 11th- both very happy, entirely normal (size aside) families, only difference between them and myself is they wash alot more underwear in a week and drive minibuses not cars :lmao
Polly
08-03-2007, 06:41 PM
I keep thinking about Monty Python's movie, the Meaning of Life.
The part where the father comes home to his gazillion children after losing his job.
Father: The mill's closed. There's no more work. We're destitute.
Children: Ohhhhh.
Father: I'm afraid I have no choice but to sell you all for scientific experiments.
Hey-Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, when a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate!"
Polly
Kristen
08-03-2007, 06:51 PM
To each their own- one good friend of mine recently had her 10th- she had one graduate university the year her youngest was born, another good friend is currently pregnant with her 11th- both very happy, entirely normal (size aside) families, only difference between them and myself is they wash alot more underwear in a week and drive minibuses not cars :lmao
I don't want 17 myself, and I don't think everyone needs to have 17, but neither do I think that those children are any worse off than tons and tons of children in families with only 1-3 children. In fact, they're probably better off than many children that live in smaller families. So yeah, I agree with Beka.
17 pregnancies would kill me. Seriously. Or I'd have to live at the hospital or something.
Thinking more about this, I honestly don't think having 17 kids is a responsible or loving choice. I certainly think they should be legally able to choose to have 17 kids, and if they didn't have so many private sources donating to them and needed public support, they certainly should have it, but I think it's a bad choice, and I do think their children are worse off than kids in smaller families. Certainly they are abusive small families, but, in general, I do think a child growing up with 17 siblings is going to get less love and care and nurturing and support than a child growing up in a family with 2 or 4 or 6 or even 8 siblings. I think there's a certain point to which parents are able to make sure the needs of all their kids are met, but at some point I think that stops being the case. I don't have a "magic number" in mind, but 17 is certainly over it.
If love isn't a feeling, but about what a parent does, the fact that parents have limited resources comes into play. There are only 24 hours in a day. A parent simply cannot be there for 17 kids the way they can be there for fewer kids. I don't know at what point I'd say a family was "too big." But, 17 certainly is. I honestly don't think a child in a family of 17 siblings is going to get the kind of attention and care that a child in a smaller family gets. I'm sure these parents think they have unlimited amounts of love, and they probably have unlimited amounts of the feeling of love, but when it comes down to love as an action, they just don't have the resources (of time and energy) to give to their children the way they would if they had fewer kids.
But, again, if they just had 17 kids, I wouldn't care. It's the fact that they promote their anti-family planning ideology that bugs me, because it would be a crisis if everybody did what they do, and they are reaping the benefits of a society where most people limit their families to a size that they can reasonably take care of. There is this amazing video on YouTube that shows a graph of family size and life expectancy in different countries over time. And, there is a clear diagonal line from countries with many children and low life expectancies to countries with fewer children and long life expectancies. While that doesn't say much about what individual families should do, because it's about averages, it does say a lot about societies. It's simply dangerous and irresponsible to promote that everybody should have as many kids as they can, and it's certainly dangerous and irresponsible to push for legislation that would enforce that (like limiting birth control access). If the Duggars weren't involved in those efforts, I'd see them as nothing more than a family that decide a large family was right for them, and think it was great that our society is one in which their children can thrive (because in most parts of the world where people have families that big, child mortality is very high). I do think it's great that people can have extremely large families that are healthy and well taken care of, because our society has the resources to ensure that that relatively small number of extremely large families can thrive. But, the Duggars just take it a step way too far for me, by acting as if their decision to have 17 kids makes them better than other people, or a more ideal family, or that they are a family that others would do well to emulate.
Jessica
08-03-2007, 11:24 PM
I don't know that they think they are better than everyone else. I think they truly feel that they are living the way God has called them to live, and being so committed to their faith, they believe that all people should live in a way that is pleasing to God. That doesn't place them on a pedestal. I also don't think they way they are living is irresponsible, they seem to have things under control - and I say more power to them! I know I would have loved to have been able to have lots of little babies for years and years and years - I always wanted a large family - but 1) Brad isn't up for that! :lmao and 2) My body certainly wasn't designed to have anymore babies than what we have had, period. They seem like a loving family, and ITA with Kristen - they are probably better off than many small families.
I honestly don't care how many children they have. I do feel like they are somewhat exploiting their children to afford all of them and live debt free. The youngest ones didn't ask to be born on TV(well practically). I just feel like they are whoring their situation out sometimes.
I think they truly feel that they are living the way God has called them to live, and being so committed to their faith, they believe that all people should live in a way that is pleasing to God.
But they believe that they define what is pleasing to God. They believe that the ONLY way a family can be pleasing to God is to have as many children as they are biologically capable of having, and they have gotten involved with politics to promote that belief. They don't want families to have the OPTION of having 18 kids; they want all people to be barred from using contraceptive. I don't agree with that.
Everybody having as many children as they are physically capable of bearing would lead to massively high rates of infant, child, and maternal mortality. It would lead to such a massive depletion of resources that we couldn't even sustain the human race for very long. I do not believe for one moment that that would please God. If they feel they need to have 18 kids, fine. It's their promotion of the quiverful ideology as the ONLY moral way to live that bothers me, and their efforts to enforce it first through legal means, and then through media propaganda.
I just think they need to acknowledge that the one and only reason their 17 kids can thrive is because the vast majority of people in our society use birth control to limit the number of kids they have. Because the vast majority of people do that, we have the resources available to make sure that some people can have 17 kids without most of them dying. But the only reason our society has gotten to that point is because of people limiting family sizes. If everybody lived like them in terms of reproduction, people would still be living to 40, and most of their kids would have died before reaching childhood. I just think they are incredibly naive (probably willfully so) if they won't admit and aknowledge that the only reason their family can survive is because the vast majority of people don't choose to live like them. Their family reaps the benefits of other family's choice to limit their family size.
If everybody stopped reproducing entirely, it would be diastrous. And, if everybody started having 10 or 15 kids, it would be diastrous. Does that mean that nobody should remain childless or that nobody should have 15 kids? Obviously not. But, if a family without kids decided to present themselves as the "perfect" family that most pleased God, and promoted their ideology that if nobody had kids we'd be better families and a better nation and make God happier, and got involved with politics to push an agenda that would make it difficult for people to have children, we'd realize how ridiculous that was, and they wouldn't be applauded or celebrated. The Duggars are no different, they're just coming from the opposite perspective. It's still a situation where turning a personal choice into a mandate for all society would be absolutely disastrous and highly irresponsible. I don't care if an individual family wants to have as many kids as they can, but the quiverful ideology to which the Duggars subscribe and which they have attempted to force onto the public (by their anti-birth control work in politics, particularly) is dangerous and irresponsible, just as dangerous and irresponsible as promoting people cease reproducing and trying to enact that belief into laws that would make it harder for people to have children.
If they want to raise their children in a family of 19, that's fine. I think there are better environments for kids, but whatever. But, when they start arguing that their way is ideal, most pleasing to God, and working to undermine the ability of other families to limit their family size (the very same ability that led to the Duggars being able to have 17 healthy kids), then they are way out of line.
LaciM
08-04-2007, 09:38 AM
From what I know about them the kids seem to be very well behaved and family oriented. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
As far as their financial situation goes....there have been other families that get big donations from companies and nobody cares about that so why care about this family?
I don't think they should be trying to make birth control illegal. What good would that do? I'm sure they don't really want to do that. Why would they think that was a good idea?
Anyway, I think as long as their kids are healthy, fed, and happy why worry about how many they have?
Maleah
08-04-2007, 11:22 AM
There are plenty and plenty of households with 1-3 kids that have checked out parents. Sometimes the only people that actually spend any one on one time with these kids are their teachers and they have slightly less than a classroom full.
I don't think she has so many that they're neglicting them to abuse standards.
I really don't see anything wrong with whoring themselves out for us to watch. Plenty of people do it and I am under the impression that they are pretty strick about when and how long the film crews get to hang out. Between reality TV, YouTube and blogs putting one's self and/or family on display is becoming a national pasttime.
After watching the show, I can't say that I ever thought they were pushing an agenda. They're a novelity and it makes good television. I am sure Discovery Health pays them pretty well for doing things they're already doing. I don't think the family on Little People Big World are pushing some kind of little people agenda either. But that's just me.
I think its awesome that she's homeschooling them (god only knows how!), he's a former congressman, and they're debt free. They teach financial responsiblity to their children, aren't taking up as much of tax payers money as they could and obviously believe in civil service. Seems like they're being pretty responsible on a social level while having this many kids.
Polly
08-04-2007, 12:57 PM
I hadn't heard about the Duggars' political work/ideology. So they think it is pleasing to God to have as many kids as biologically possible? Where does that place infertile people? As some kind of mistake of nature? Or that stupid and cruel fallback speech, "God has a plan for everyone. We aren't expected to understand why certain things happen. But the infertile people are part of that plan, too." Please explain more about their beliefs.
Polly
I think its awesome that she's homeschooling them (god only knows how!), he's a former congressman, and they're debt free. They teach financial responsiblity to their children, aren't taking up as much of tax payers money as they could and obviously believe in civil service. Seems like they're being pretty responsible on a social level while having this many kids.
They're only debt-free, though, because of the massive amount of donations they get. Basically everything in their home is donated to them. And, the only reason they get donations is because they have 17 kids. Frankly, they market their family as a freak show and profit off of it. If they had 11 kids instead of 17, nobody would care, they wouldn't be getting the attention and donations they get, and they'd be struggling really badly, like most families that size to, and they'd suffer from all of the problems that go with huge amounts of stress. I just think bragging about being debt free when everything in your home is donated is really absurd. Yeah, pay for the homes, furniture, appliances, and vehicles for everybody, and most Americans would be debt-free, as well.
My FIL is one of eleven siblings, and they grew up in a housing project, and nearly all of his siblings have either chronic illnesses, chronic drug problems, or are alcoholics. Over half of them have been divorced. Only one went to college, and one committed suicide. None of the 11 have more than 3 kids, and most have either one or none, because they didn't want to repeat what they grew up with. Both parents died in their mid-60s. I'm not saying that's the case for all extremely large families, but it seems to be more representative of what extremely large families go through than the Duggars, who basically live off of donations from people because they market their family as an oddity.
I just think it's absurd that this family gets celebrated. It's not amazing to have 17 kids. It's something they want to do. There are families that large all over the world, and the vast majority of them are in dire poverty, and in need of way more help than the Duggars. I just hate that they generate so much publicity and popularity for doing something that would result in many dead children and probably a dead mother in most of the world. In places without birth control, 17 kids isn't the norm, but it's not that aberrant, either, and those families don't even have enough food to feed their kids, much less a brand-new 7000 sq. ft. home built with all donated materials.
I hadn't heard about the Duggars' political work/ideology. So they think it is pleasing to God to have as many kids as biologically possible? Where does that place infertile people?
The Quiverful movement believes that people should not use birth control or try to prevent pregnancy in any way. They should have as many kids as they can, because that's what God wants people to do, "be fruitful and multiply." They interpret that really literally. I think they'd see infertility as a sign that a person isn't meant to have kids. I don't know if they'd see it as a punishment from God, or something that could be overcome by more faith, or just as natural, or what.
Some, like the Duggars, take it further into the political realm, where they promote extremely right-wing social policies that would ultimately (and, for them, ideally) make it harder for other people to access artificial birth control.
Kristen
08-04-2007, 02:54 PM
I hadn't heard about the Duggars' political work/ideology. So they think it is pleasing to God to have as many kids as biologically possible? Where does that place infertile people? As some kind of mistake of nature? Or that stupid and cruel fallback speech, "God has a plan for everyone. We aren't expected to understand why certain things happen. But the infertile people are part of that plan, too." Please explain more about their beliefs.
Polly
Like Lori said, people like that generally just think you should let go and let God when it comes to babies. And so, if you let go and you don't get pregnant, no biggie. The Bible says in lots of places that God opens and closes the womb. It's not His plan for everyone to have children.
They're only debt-free, though, because of the massive amount of donations they get. Basically everything in their home is donated to them. And, the only reason they get donations is because they have 17 kids. Frankly, they market their family as a freak show and profit off of it. If they had 11 kids instead of 17, nobody would care, they wouldn't be getting the attention and donations they get, and they'd be struggling really badly, like most families that size to, and they'd suffer from all of the problems that go with huge amounts of stress. I just think bragging about being debt free when everything in your home is donated is really absurd. Yeah, pay for the homes, furniture, appliances, and vehicles for everybody, and most Americans would be debt-free, as well.
I completely agree with you Lori. That is one of the reasons I won't watch any of their programs. I was flipping through the channels once and their vacation special was on. It occurred to me that I was helping pay for their vacation. I changed the channel.
Mally's Mom
08-04-2007, 06:32 PM
Well being from Arkansas, I hear PLENTY about this family. I just feel sorry for the kids, yes I feel mom and dad are just out to "out do" the rest of America, but yet these poor kids don't get to have a "normal" childhood. A) Their lives are plastered all on TV for the world to gwak at and B) the older kids have a child (or it may be more than 1) that they are responsible for dressing, feeding, and taking care of. I feel that if you have so many kids that "you" can't raise them, love them, and take care of them than quit having them!The kids did not ask for you to have more kids, and I am sure they did not ask to take care of them.:sorry that is just my spill on this issue.
I have to say though, I just can't get past the "all J names" and especially the name Jinger.
Hmmm after reviewing the article this one does seem to have gotten off lightly- although i grew up with a family who named their kids Paul, Paula and Pauline i kid you not!!!!! (And my uncle gave all of his kids Christian as a middle name- except his daughter who got Christine and an A name as a first name- used to cause all out fights when a letter used to arrive just itialled ACB i can tell you!)