Obeisity

[Danielle]

Okay, so I was listening to talk radio yesterday (yes, I'm a nerd) and the debate was whether or not extremely obese people (300lb+) should be accommodated at the cost of others in society.

For example, there's a new ambulance they've developed (in Alberta I believe) that can transport people weighing up to 1000 lbs but the cost of the truck and equipment is VERY high. Should taxpayers have to fork out the cash for this specialized equipment? What about airfares? Should thinner people have to pay more so that obese people can have 2 seats for the price of a single seat?


Have at it ladies :D.

[Danielle]

Ack... I spelled obesity wrong in the title.

I guess for me it comes down to what you believe is the cause of extreme obesity. On the show I was listening to, the stat they gave was that there are 4 times the amount of morbidly obese people now than there were 50 years ago. Therefore, the explaination can't be entirely genetic as some people insist.
Personally, I think there are many factors at play. More foods with high fat, inactivity, medical problems and also genetics to a degree.

That being said, I thing that there is a personal responsibility element in almost all cases of morbid obesity and I don't necessarily believe that society should have to pay to accommodate people who eat themselves up to 1000 lbs.

I feel mean saying that so if anyone wants to convince me otherwise, I'm open to suggestions LOL.

[gr8mommy]

If you're mean, Danielle, than I am truly evil. From what I understand, morbidly obese people require the assistance of others to get them food. One show I watched was about a 700+ lb man, and his mother? sister? whomever was making him a huge meal with a dozen eggs, a pound of bacon, nearly a loaf of bread, etc. Those enablers should be charged the costs, in my opinion. If someone wasn't fetching their food, they'd at least be getting out of bed.

Someone who takes up two seats in a plane should pay for two seats. That said, however, I think airlines should be making seats both larger and farther apart, for the comfort of all. Until that happens, though, cough up the dough.

[Lori]

I'd say it depends. When it comes to things like an ambulance, I do think that society should foot the bill. I don't care why somebody is unable to use a non-accessible ambulance; if they have an emergency, they deserve the same access to care as everybody else. Somebody's personal responsibility doesn't absolve society of our responsibility to care for others. Somebody who is paralyzed because they were driving drunk is no less deserving of a wheelchair ramp or accessible ambulance than a person who is paralyzed because they were hit by a drunk driver. Extremely obese people are citizens and taxpayers, and they have every right to the same public services as everybody else, even if that means some accomodation, just as is true for blind or deaf or wheelchair-bound people, regardless of what the cause of their disability is. What it comes down to for me is that our responsibility as a society to care for all members doesn't go away because somebody caused their own problems. The fact that they are personally responsible for their lives doesn't mean that we aren't still responsible for them, as members of what I hope is a civil, compassionate society. I think that if somebody needs accomodations to use public or necessary facilities, they should have those accomodations, and the reason why shouldn't matter.

But, I'd consider airline tickets different. Personally, I think airlines should be more accomodating. I'm definitely not extremely obese (I'm about a size 16), and I'm uncomfortable in airline seats much of the time. My husband is 6'5" and he's miserable when he flies. So, it would be nice if airlines were more accomodating, in terms of having more leg room, larger seats, and even emptier flights, so that if somebody needed an extra seat for whatever reason, it wouldn't be a major issue. But when every flight is overbooked and people are packed in like sardines, it's going to be an issue. I don't think airlines should be forced to provide a person with an extra ticket at no charge, but I don't object to them doing so. I don't believe it would end up costing other passengers more. I've been on many flights, and I can think of maybe one time when there was a person flying who was so large they needed two seats. Since I imagine it's not a particularly common occurance, I don't see any reason for airlines NOT to simply offer an extremely obese person two seats, but if they require them to pay for it, that's their choice.

I know a few very overweight people who fly frequently, and they manage in one seat, although I have no idea how. But they certainly aren't insisting on an extra seat. So in some ways I think it has less to do with accomodating the very overweight than with accomodating other passengers, who don't want to have a very overweight person's body touching theirs. Since I think that's probably the real reason why obese people are sometimes forced to buy two seats when they can manage in one, I have no problem with them being given the extra seat at no cost.

[Danielle]

So in some ways I think it has less to do with accomodating the very overweight than with accomodating other passengers, who don't want to have a very overweight person's body touching theirs. Since I think that's probably the real reason why obese people are sometimes forced to buy two seats when they can manage in one, I have no problem with them being given the extra seat at no cost.

I don't think it's like "Ewww, I don't want a fat person touching me" but more about being comfortable in your very expensive airline seat. If your body is invading MY space that I paid for, someone, whether it's the passenger or the airline had better find more space for you. I have no problem with the airlines providing the seats free of charge, but they had better absorb the costs and not charge me more.

ETA- I don't mean "you" in a personal sense towards anyone ;).

[Danielle]

I tend to agree on the ambulances... everyone has a right to certain public services and we do accomodate lots of people, including criminals.

I think the other valid point with the ambulances is that these vehicles make it easier on EMS staff as well. They have hydrolic lifts and such to save the attendants backs. I think that alone makes them justifiable.

[Lori]

I don't think it's like "Ewww, I don't want a fat person touching me" but more about being comfortable in your very expensive airline seat. If your body is invading MY space that I paid for, someone, whether it's the passenger or the airline had better find more space for you. I have no problem with the airlines providing the seats free of charge, but they had better absorb the costs and not charge me more.

ETA- I don't mean "you" in a personal sense towards anyone ;).

I don't think people are necessarily being cruel about it. I just meant that, in general, I don't think it's that extremely obese people are demanding two seats. It's the airlines, probably prompted by complaints from other passengers, who are requiring that the extremely obese buy two seats. So I personally think that it should be the airline who foots the bill in that case, because it's a move they are making to keep their other passengers happy. If they don't, that's their choice, but I do think, if they require some passengers to have two seats whether they want to or not, they shouldn't force them to pay double, especially given how much air travel costs.

[Erika]

I do believe airlines need to accommodate passengers more by having wider seats and more leg room (especially with the rise of DVTs). However, an obese person is not entitled to an extra seat free of charge. Flying isn't a right and (and I'm speaking as an overweight person) if they can't fit into one seat, well, they either don't fly or pay for two. There are very few reasons to be so obese and for the person not to be personally responsible. Prader-willi syndrome is one of the few reasons a person can be obese and it not be their fault.

As for the ambulances, that is a right, not a privilege and so obese people shouldn't have to pay extra for that. With that line of thinking (that they should) well then shouldn't people who use ambulances more frequently have to pay extra? And for those who have never used an ambulance, do they get money back? I see emergency medical services as part of the societal contract that we all sign up for as part of living in the society, so we all pay towards it.

And Denise, I definately agree with you about the enablers. I am always appalled that a loved one of a morbidly obese person would feed them such huge meals. They don't seem to realise that they are passively killing them.

[Christine]

The last time I flew, I had to pay full price for the child that sat on my lap. If I have to pay two fares for one seat, someone using two seats should definitely have to pay two fares.

I can see where, in some instances, there should be options available for severely obese people. But for the most part, no.

[Beka]

My husband is a 300lb+ man, should he be less deserving of medical care if he were taken suiddenly ill and needing emergency assistance? No, he's a hard working man who has paid taxes since he began work at age 16 and has never required anything of the medical system aside from my care with the birth of our 4 children and the occasional nebulisation for his asthma which he suffered worse with when he was 150lb than he does at 300lb+ , he's never broke a bone, had a car crash, been so drunk he's needed emergency care. Yet he's paid into our system which does give free care to all including the long term unemployed who have never paid into it, those unable to work through disability (and there are smaller, lighter people than him claiming disability on the grounds of morbid obesity yet he has and does always work) so should his size deny him access to services his taxes pay for when they willingly provide care to those of normal size who do not pay into the system or who regularly use the system for frivalous and avoidable circumstances (over doses, alcohol poisoning, physical injury through brawling etc)? No, he's a human being like any other and he's someones father, husband and son- the fact he may not be attractive in swim wear or might require 2 seats on a bus or plane does not mean he should be denied medical care.

In terms of plane seats etc i do believe we need to modify the size of them, airlines try and maximise the number of salable seats and yet adult average size has risen drastically since the introduction of commercial air travel. Obviously those of extreme size like my DH if they require 2 seats they should have to pay for 2 seats just as you have to pay more to take extra baggage. I think the key here is I don't expect my dh to have any special privilidge due to his size but i do expect him to have access to essential care. 300lb men are not all that unusual these days and not all extremely obese men are living off the state- the majority of them are still tax payers themselves it's just the media opts to portray the worst extreme of obesity where clapping makes them sweat and climbing a flight of stairs is too much. At 300lb+ (he's around 360lb) my husband can still walk the several mile we do to buy our grocery, he can still play soccer with my children, he can still carry the children, he still works a manual job- i can think of 200lb men who claim to be too worn out to achieve those tasks.

[teawhisk]

I am always appalled that a loved one of a morbidly obese person would feed them such huge meals. They don't seem to realise that they are passively killing them.

Hmmm... I've often wondered if the enablers overfeed the morbidly obese precisely because they know it will kill them. :mouthshut

[Christine]

Beka - I think we're mostly referring to the severely obese - as in 500-1000 pounds. That's where my mind was going anyway. I don't see how an ambulance wouldn't be able to support a 300 man.

Also, I'm living in a country where we're already paying exorbitant amounts towards our health care. Perhaps if my health care were paid for, I wouldn't mind shelling out more for accommodations for other people. As it is, this penny is pinched as far as it can go!

[Beka]

Perhaps if my health care were paid for, I wouldn't mind shelling out more for accommodations for other people. As it is, this penny is pinched as far as it can go!

But this is a very common misconception- we don't get *free* health care in the Uk, every working person is taxed to a ridiculous level for it- David pays out around 25-30% of his paycheck in taxes which can not be reclaimed, this tax is for very little other than health care, education & other peoples welfare claims as road up keep comes under road tax, policing and public services under council tax, environmental issues in the tax on fuel, we pay VAT of 17.5% on all consumables which we can't claim back unless we're a large scale business reguardless of what the expenditure is for, we pay a further % of our wages in national insurance which we can't opt out of. If we didn't have to pay the contributions that we do towards a national health scheme for "free" healthcare for all we'd actually be able to afford a far far superior level of care compared to what we currently receive- the only difference is we wouldn't be paying for those who dont, can't or won't work we'd only be paying for ourselves.

I think the idea of the UK being a free healthcare system is madly misconstrued as in reality we probably pay around 60 pence in every pound out in taxes of some sort that we will never reclaim.

[gr8mommy]

Beka, it isn't a misconception but a different meaning to 'free'. In the US we also pay taxes to cover medical care for those who qualify for government programs (Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) but those over the income thresholds (which are very, very low) have to either pay medical costs in full or pay for insurance coverage.

Most jobs don't offer 'free' insurance coverage anymore, either, and even when the plans they provide cover the employees, there are additional fees for covering the family members, prescriptions, deductibles, etc. We pay into a plan through my husband's employer, and our contribution amounts to nearly $12,000 for the five of us for the year. That is just the premium---it doesn't include copays for doctors, medications, or deductibles. Frightening, seeing as our plan is considered 'great'.

I do agree that national healthcare is very expensive, but the cost is less obvious to those who aren't paying into it. That is just one of many, many reasons I hope the US never tries it.

That said, yes, you are misunderstanding the term 'morbidly obese' as applies to this thread. My own husband is well over 300 lbs, but he can still fit into airline seats, ride in a traditional ambulance, etc. As Christine stated, we're discussing the 500 lb + crowd here. The ones where they have sat on their couch so long the fabric has fused to their skin, or the fire department needs to knock out a window and half a wall to get them out of their apartments. I'm quite sure your husband doesn't qualify.

[Jo]

If someone is obese due to a bona fide medical condition such as Prader willi, then it should be considered a disability and treated as such. If someone is obese due to their own bad choices, then I think that is their problem when dealing with privilege issues such as riding on an airplane.

As for ambulances and other health care issues, then yes, I do think morbidly obese people should have the same access as everyone else.

[Lori]

That said, yes, you are misunderstanding the term 'morbidly obese' as applies to this thread. My own husband is well over 300 lbs, but he can still fit into airline seats, ride in a traditional ambulance, etc. As Christine stated, we're discussing the 500 lb + crowd here.

I think the issue a lot of people have with airlines is that several have a policy where everybody who weighs over a certain amount MUST buy two seats, regardless of whether they can fit into one or whether they've made arrangements to deal with it. That's the kind of policy, as far as I know, that people find unfair. And, I can understand why. Somebody can weigh a lot, but be relatively narrow, and fit fine into an airline seat. Or, they might be flying with somebody smaller, and just plan to raise the armrest between them. So, in cases like that, I can understand being upset if airline policy forces you to pay for two tickets because you weigh more than X pounds, which is, I think, the policies that people have an issue with.

If someone is obese due to a bona fide medical condition such as Prader willi, then it should be considered a disability and treated as such. If someone is obese due to their own bad choices, then I think that is their problem when dealing with privilege issues such as riding on an airplane.

I'm not sure how I feel about morbid obesity being considered a disability. However, I don't think that the cause of somebody's problem should determine whether or not they are disabled. A person who is wheelchair-bound because they were driving drunk and got into an accident should, I think, be afforded the same accomodations as somebody who is in a wheelchair because they have a congenital problem. We have a friend who is visually impaired due to a self-inflicted injury, because he was seriously mentally ill in the past. I don't think he should be treated as different from other visually-impaired people because he caused his own disability. I don't think that the reason why a person has whatever physical problem they may have should determine whether they are classified as disabled or afforded the same accomodations as other disabled people, although, as I said, I'm not sure how I feel about obesity being officially classified as a disability.

[gr8mommy]

I can understand being upset if airline policy forces you to pay for two tickets because you weigh more than X pounds, which is, I think, the policies that people have an issue with.


I'm unaware of any actual airline policy stating this. Unless you announce your weight to them, they can't force you to pay for two tickets. Requiring someone to step on a scale would likely be illegal---unless you're flying some tiny puddle jumper, in which case they usually need to ask each passenger their approximate weight.

However, they CAN and SHOULD force you to buy two tickets if you can't fit into a single seat.

[Jo]

I'm not sure how I feel about morbid obesity being considered a disability. However, I don't think that the cause of somebody's problem should determine whether or not they are disabled. A person who is wheelchair-bound because they were driving drunk and got into an accident should, I think, be afforded the same accommodations as somebody who is in a wheelchair because they have a congenital problem. We have a friend who is visually impaired due to a self-inflicted injury, because he was seriously mentally ill in the past. I don't think he should be treated as different from other visually-impaired people because he caused his own disability. I don't think that the reason why a person has whatever physical problem they may have should determine whether they are classified as disabled or afforded the same accommodations as other disabled people, although, as I said, I'm not sure how I feel about obesity being officially classified as a disability.

I am not talking about obesity in and of itself being considered a disability. A person's primary disability is whatever condition they have and obesity would be a symptom of that condition. For instance, Prader-Willi is a genetic condition where people don't have the normal ability to feel sated. People with this condition also tend to mildly mentally retarded. If someone has a hypothyroid which makes weight loss more difficult, their primary condition deals with a malfunctioning thyroid and not obesity. There are many conditions that have weight gain as a symptom but aren't the primary diagnosis. That is why I see that differently.

But if someone eats themselves into morbid obesity, I find that completely different. The ability to change is within themselves and it is their responsibility to assume responsibility for that. I see that as much different than your friend who blinded himself. While it is unfortunate that he did that, no matter what he does, he cannot change his blindness and needs accommodations to survive. He also did that due to a primary cause of mental illness. A person who has chosen to develop an unhealthy lifestyle can change their situation if they choose.

[Christine]

But weight of the passengers and cargo IS important to the safety of the airplane - even in very large planes.

[gr8mommy]

In larger planes it isn't as critical regarding weight and distribution of that weight.

[Desirae]

If you're mean, Danielle, than I am truly evil. From what I understand, morbidly obese people require the assistance of others to get them food. One show I watched was about a 700+ lb man, and his mother? sister? whomever was making him a huge meal with a dozen eggs, a pound of bacon, nearly a loaf of bread, etc. Those enablers should be charged the costs, in my opinion. If someone wasn't fetching their food, they'd at least be getting out of bed.

Someone who takes up two seats in a plane should pay for two seats. That said, however, I think airlines should be making seats both larger and farther apart, for the comfort of all. Until that happens, though, cough up the dough.


I absolutely agree.