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A female student who considers herself to be transgender has been allowed to run for prom king. How do you feel about this?
Article (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070421/D8OKLKP01.html)
I think she should be allowed to do so. I see no reason for transgendered people to be discriminated against or to be treated by society as the gender they want to be treated as.
At the same time, I have serious issues with the whole transgender movement, in the sense that it is sometimes seen as some sort of subversive, progressive act. How? We wouldn't think an Asian person who wanted to live and act and be treated as a white person was doing something subversive. We wouldn't be applauding their decision to have surgery to change their featues so that they appear more "white" as some sort of wonderfully transgressive act. We'd see it for what it was: a person who was so filled with self-hatred, often fueled by messages from their society about what it means to be Asian that they don't like, that they are taking a sad and extreme step.
I don't see transgendered individuals any differently. We shouldn't scorn them or discriminate them or show them anything less than the respect and compassion we should show every individual, but I see nothing subversive or progressive about so fully buying into the ideas about gender our culture feeds you that you feel you can't be comfortable as the gender you were born as. I've known a few transgendered individuals, and in every case (obviously every case I've known, not every case in the world ;)) they were raised in environments where ideas about gender--what men are and what women are--were extremely strict and rigid, and they couldn't fit into them. So rather than live as a man or a woman who doesn't fit the expected mold of what men or women are, they decided to be the other gender. I can't fault them for that, but I also think it's sad that their ideas about gender were so limited. They simply couldn't be, say, a "good" man in the way their environment told them a man should be, so they tried to be a "good" woman. But, of course, they aren't accepted as women, so the entire enterprise fails. And it's just sad.
In a case like this, I think it would be far more transgressive for this girl to run, exactly the way she is and looks, as prom queen. Why not challenge ideas of what it means to be a girl--you can't have short hair and wear guy's clothes and look butch? Why not? Why can't girls do those things and still be accepted as girls?--rather than identify with what it means to be a boy? I just see standing up and saying, "This is what being a girl can mean, too" as much more subversive of our typical ideas about gender than identifying as transgender.
Maleah
04-21-2007, 05:20 PM
I understand the need to be accepted for who you are, but on the flip side the school as other students and the student in questions's safety to think about.
Prom queen/king whatever I don't have any problems with a girl or a guy running in either category. But I think treating them as the opposite gender of their physical assignment has to stop as superfical issues like this. You can't let a physical girl change in the guy's locker room.
Even if she has a boy's name, dresses like a boy, looks like a boy, and plays on the football team. (S)he is still a physical female and all the students involved are still children. I don't think transgender teens are mature enough to decide their own genders for keeps. So while they're still minors and in school I think its great that the school lets them experience as much as possible in the other role, they can make the final jump when they're adults.
It would be great if schools started debating and developed a policy for these kinds of issues.
I knew a TG teen in HS who changed and used the restroom in the nurse's office. That seemed like a good solution, to me.
At the same time, I have serious issues with the whole transgender movement, in the sense that it is sometimes seen as some sort of subversive, progressive act. How? We wouldn't think an Asian person who wanted to live and act and be treated as a white person was doing something subversive.
I disagree that these are anywhere close to the same thing. For one thing, an Asian person SHOULD be able to live and act and be treated as a white person - that was the whole point of racial integration. And I would say that people like Rosa Parks and MLK were DEFINITELY considered subversive, particularly at the time. Many people decades ago thought that the color of your skin made you a different kind of person, a better or a worse person, and people who wanted to be considered on the same level were subversive. There is no difference between people other than the color of their skin. (This is of course recognizing that the culture people come from have a huge impact, but again this is across the board.)
We wouldn't be applauding their decision to have surgery to change their featues so that they appear more "white" as some sort of wonderfully transgressive act. We'd see it for what it was: a person who was so filled with self-hatred, often fueled by messages from their society about what it means to be Asian that they don't like, that they are taking a sad and extreme step.
When it comes to people who want to be a different color (usually white) it more often then not comes from being treated with prejudice, and wanting to not be treated as a lesser race. It often comes from outside influences that has huge negative impact on the individual.
I don't see transgendered individuals any differently. We shouldn't scorn them or discriminate them or show them anything less than the respect and compassion we should show every individual, but I see nothing subversive or progressive about so fully buying into the ideas about gender our culture feeds you that you feel you can't be comfortable as the gender you were born as. I've known a few transgendered individuals, and in every case (obviously every case I've known, not every case in the world ;)) they were raised in environments where ideas about gender--what men are and what women are--were extremely strict and rigid, and they couldn't fit into them. So rather than live as a man or a woman who doesn't fit the expected mold of what men or women are, they decided to be the other gender.
For the most part I would say that this does not apply to the majority of transsexuals. The driving factor for the most part is not that they don't feel that they can live within the gender roles (there are many gays and lesbians who come from those environments), but rather a driving feeling that they were born the wrong gender - an inside feeling rather than one born of outside influences. It's not that they can't live within the expectation of their gender roles, it is that they were born into the wrong gender, and they either knew it or felt something was wrong from a young age, and figured it out later on. It was innate, not external.
I can't fault them for that, but I also think it's sad that their ideas about gender were so limited. They simply couldn't be, say, a "good" man in the way their environment told them a man should be, so they tried to be a "good" woman. But, of course, they aren't accepted as women, so the entire enterprise fails. And it's just sad.
But again, this misses the point. F2M and M2F don't choose to be one gender, they are who they feel inside, and their genitals don't fit them. That is one reason that the suicide rate, both failed and successful, is so high among this population. And in a good deal of cases they are successful at passing in many situations, and if they aren't always, who cares as long as they feel more open with themselves? Same as homosexuals - it would be much easier to pass in society pretending to be "normal" but that would be lying to themselves.
In a case like this, I think it would be far more transgressive for this girl to run, exactly the way she is and looks, as prom queen. Why not challenge ideas of what it means to be a girl--you can't have short hair and wear guy's clothes and look butch? Why not? Why can't girls do those things and still be accepted as girls?--rather than identify with what it means to be a boy? I just see standing up and saying, "This is what being a girl can mean, too" as much more subversive of our typical ideas about gender than identifying as transgender.
Because he is not trying to challenge what it means to be a girl - if he was than he'd be running as a butch woman who wants to be prom king. He's running because a) he identifies as male, not as a woman who wants to buck stereotypes, and b) because his classmates nominated him. It is hard in a good deal of our society to identify as queer, but it is the hardest I think for trans - so coming out as trans is extremely hard - so it is not the being transsexual that is considered subversive, it is the fact that they are wanting to be treated as equals. Which takes me back to my first point in this post.
I understand the need to be accepted for who you are, but on the flip side the school as other students and the student in questions's safety to think about. [QUOTE]
But if this was to be universally applied, it would mean that no homosexual students should be allowed to be out in school. And what about different cultures, religions or races? All have been used as excuses to to either abuse or deny students being who they are.
[QUOTE]Prom queen/king whatever I don't have any problems with a girl or a guy running in either category. But I think treating them as the opposite gender of their physical assignment has to stop as superfical issues like this. You can't let a physical girl change in the guy's locker room.
Believe it or not their are trans people who manage to be in the opposite room without people knowing. When they are known like this though it does create issues. I've heard of schools who allow them to use alternate places like Jeri and I think that is a good solution.
I don't think transgender teens are mature enough to decide their own genders for keeps. So while they're still minors and in school I think its great that the school lets them experience as much as possible in the other role, they can make the final jump when they're adults.
Many teens know they are trans as teens, just like many know they are gay.
It would be great if schools started debating and developed a policy for these kinds of issues.
I 100% agree ;)
Maleah
04-23-2007, 12:03 AM
But if this was to be universally applied, it would mean that no homosexual students should be allowed to be out in school. And what about different cultures, religions or races? All have been used as excuses to to either abuse or deny students being who they are.
Its not about having an excuse to abuse or deny a student. Its about having students segrated by sex so staff have clear policies to follow. Male teachers supervising the guys' locker rooms and bathrooms and female teachers supervising the girls' rooms etc. Not to mention, just because the student feels like they are another sex, they are physically still the opposite sex. We can't expect high school students to be mature enough to handle situations like that with grace with clothes removed. There's very little to gain by having a transgender student dressing out with members of their opposite physical sex, but it puts all of the students in an uncomfortable situation and opens the school to huge liabilities.
I don't think this is on par with religion, race or culture discrimination.
Believe it or not their are trans people who manage to be in the opposite room without people knowing. When they are known like this though it does create issues. I've heard of schools who allow them to use alternate places like Jeri and I think that is a good solution.
I am sure plenty of trans people manage to pass and that's not the issue. The issue is when they fail to or they are already out'ed. I think allowing alternative places is a great idea.
Many teens know they are trans as teens, just like many know they are gay.
There's no dispute that these transgender people can be aware of their gender issues as a teen. But even adults have to live in the lifestyle for years and go into therapy before being allowed re-assignment surgery by responsible doctors. Its not an easy transition as coming out homosexually. And typically once you've had assignment surgery, you can't go back with any success. So while children might be aware that they are transgender, they still do not have the maturity to make a full transition into the other gender.
Allowing them to run for things like prom king/queen and be treated as the opposite sex in school to a point is a great exercise to prepare them for the rest of the process. I just don't think that they need the entire experience available to them at the expense of other students and the liability of the school.
But again, this misses the point. F2M and M2F don't choose to be one gender, they are who they feel inside, and their genitals don't fit them.
That's my primary issue with transgenderism, though. I don't understand why we think it's somehow progressive for a person to claim that they have the "wrong" genitals, when we wouldn't believe that about other things. I think we'd feel very differently about a black person who claimed that they felt white inside, and had the "wrong" skin, and would think that they had internalized a lot of self-loathing that they needed to change, not that they needed to change their skin color. If a woman felt that she was a large-breasted woman trapped in a small-breasted woman's body, I don't think we'd applaud her decision to get breast implants as subversive. In cases like that, we understand that the outside features of somebody's body doesn't define who they are, even if it does cause society to define them in certain ways. But we recognize that the problem is with society, not with the person's physical features. I think we are erring in treating genitals as somehow fundamentally different and agreeing that they do define a person in some complete and fundamental way, so that it's possible to have the "wrong" genitals when we simply don't believe it's possible to have the "wrong" skin or "wrong" nose or "wrong" thighs.
I really do think that if we accepted and celebrated that, whatever differences may exist between men and women as groups, individual variations are much larger and the range of traits and qualities that "male" and "female" can each encompass is just enormously wide, then people wouldn't feel that they had the "wrong" genitals or were the "wrong" sex. And, if we didn't have such rigid views of gender, I don't think we'd be so quick to agree that it's possible to have the "wrong" genitals, because we'd know that your gentials don't define who you are in any fundamental way, any more than your skin or nose or breasts do.
so it is not the being transsexual that is considered subversive, it is the fact that they are wanting to be treated as equals. Which takes me back to my first point in this post.
ITA about treating transgendered and transsexual people as equal. My concern is just with treating them as some sort of progressive gender pioneers. I think we need to be as critical of the idea of being trapped in the "wrong" body as we'd be of being trapped in the "wrong" skin color or in a body with the "wrong" nose.
I just don't understand why somebody can't just be a guy who likes to wear make-up and dresses. And that sounds absurd, obviously, because our society is so fully conditioned to see make-up and dresses as "for women," but they're just things, and it's hard to see what the big deal is when you think about it. Why can't a guy want to wear or use them and still be accepted as a man? I'm a woman who doesn't wear make-up and hates to wear dresses. Another women may love to wear make-up and dresses. We're still both women.
I've only known male-to-female transsexuals, and I do think that if there weren't such rigid culturally boundaries defining what a "man" can be--boundaries that I think are much, much more rigid for men than for women--then a man who enjoyed wearing make-up wouldn't have to feel as if they were trapped in the wrong body. If society didn't assign so much meaning to their genitals, not in terms of reproductive function (which no surgery can change), but simply in terms of what it means for what a person can be and do and wear and like and want, then I think that life would have not only been much easier for them, but they wouldn't have felt in the "wrong" body in the first place. And they absolutely don't deserve to be discriminated against or treated as freaks, and it's awful that that happens, but I do think that, under better circumstances, where the boundaries of what was acceptable for a man were a little wider, they wouldn't feel the need to identify with another gender.
Its not about having an excuse to abuse or deny a student. Its about having students segrated by sex so staff have clear policies to follow. Male teachers supervising the guys' locker rooms and bathrooms and female teachers supervising the girls' rooms etc. Not to mention, just because the student feels like they are another sex, they are physically still the opposite sex. We can't expect high school students to be mature enough to handle situations like that with grace with clothes removed. There's very little to gain by having a transgender student dressing out with members of their opposite physical sex, but it puts all of the students in an uncomfortable situation and opens the school to huge liabilities.
oh, I agree here, I wasn't refering to dressing rooms specifically here - I thought you were talking about over all as the locker rooms came up in the next paragraph.
I don't think this is on par with religion, race or culture discrimination.
There's no dispute that these transgender people can be aware of their gender issues as a teen. But even adults have to live in the lifestyle for years and go into therapy before being allowed re-assignment surgery by responsible doctors. Its not an easy transition as coming out homosexually. And typically once you've had assignment surgery, you can't go back with any success. So while children might be aware that they are transgender, they still do not have the maturity to make a full transition into the other gender.
I agree with the full body transition - and even the student in the story had no plans to make the transition with hormones or surgery.
Allowing them to run for things like prom king/queen and be treated as the opposite sex in school to a point is a great exercise to prepare them for the rest of the process. I just don't think that they need the entire experience available to them at the expense of other students and the liability of the school.
Do you think that it is at the expense of anyone else in anything but the locker room senario? (Not snarky - I was trying to think if there were any others it could be an issue in)
That's my primary issue with transgenderism, though. I don't understand why we think it's somehow progressive for a person to claim that they have the "wrong" genitals, when we wouldn't believe that about other things. I think we'd feel very differently about a black person who claimed that they felt white inside, and had the "wrong" skin, and would think that they had internalized a lot of self-loathing that they needed to change, not that they needed to change their skin color. If a woman felt that she was a large-breasted woman trapped in a small-breasted woman's body, I don't think we'd applaud her decision to get breast implants as subversive. In cases like that, we understand that the outside features of somebody's body doesn't define who they are, even if it does cause society to define them in certain ways. But we recognize that the problem is with society, not with the person's physical features. I think we are erring in treating genitals as somehow fundamentally different and agreeing that they do define a person in some complete and fundamental way, so that it's possible to have the "wrong" genitals when we simply don't believe it's possible to have the "wrong" skin or "wrong" nose or "wrong" thighs.
The genitals are just one way of expressing it - many do not have surgery, and that is becoming even more common. Perhaps in a more *ideal* society there would more than 2 genders, but I have a hard time ever seeing that happening. Feeling that you are inside one sex, and on the outside another is very different than boobs or thighs, etc.
Ooops, too fast. I was going to add, if it was just an issue of the genitals I'd agree with you more. But it is much deaper than that, it is just one way of expressing how they feel that I have head a lot.
Maleah
04-23-2007, 08:36 PM
Do you think that it is at the expense of anyone else in anything but the locker room senario? (Not snarky - I was trying to think if there were any others it could be an issue in)
Well, to go along with the locker theme. In some schools that have had to deal with these kinds of things, they don't let trans students play for sports teams other than their physical sex. Having a physical male on the girl's basketball team isn't seen as a good idea because the student is still typically larger, stronger, etc. The same thing with having a girl on the football team. While they identify with the opposite gender they still have the physical attributes of their born gender. I think insurance plays a big part in the sports decisions.
Most schools require two teachers present with at least one being the same sex as the student when handing out any physical discipline, searches, medical exams, etc.