Gringrich calls Spanish "Ghetto" Language

[Polly]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/31/AR2007033100992.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Yeah, Newt. Bet you're going to get a lot of hispanic voters now. Stupid, really. Illegal aliens can't vote but their children can. Dumbass.

Polly

[wendygrace]

Oopsie!

[wendygrace]

Ya know, its amazing how many people forget that the United States has NO Official Language.

[Beka]

Ya know, its amazing how many people forget that the United States has NO Official Language.

Does it not? How bizarre- probably remarkably bigotted of me but i'd always imagined it to be American-English (probably because the only time i have visited has been to English speaking parts)

Have to admit what an entirely idiotic statement of him to make- the good thing about it, at least those people won't be wasting their vote now on a man who clearly has no respect for any culture other than that which mirrors his own

[Erika]

What a fabulous thing to say :rolleyes I mean, these days is English the only common language of America? I assumed that Spanish was fast becoming one of the more common languages.

Course the funniest part of it is that Spanish-speakers discovered the American continent.

O and Beks, here is something for you. English is not the official language of Ireland! Irish is. Eventhough the actual amount of native Irish speakers is limited to a tiny part of the West coast of Ireland.

[Beka]

My MIL is one of them Erika ;) - David is lapsed but as a child was bi-lingual as his grandparents didn't speak much English at all (and hated FIL for being English.... i just hate him for being a weaner LOL apparently they did eventually warm towards the English as David, Vicki and Ellie grew up though so apparently wouldn't have hated me entirely) MIL has only really spoken English since shortly before she moved to England at 17/18 - apparently she was raised bilingual but spoke Irish at home. My sister used to date (and almost married- it was another bob finds commitment freaks and runs scenerio) a welsh man who's grandparents had never learnt any English at all so my sister learnt welsh to be able to take Granny out places, I know his brother was big on Plaid Cymru and was raising his family to speak exclusively welsh too- dying languages though both of them sadly.

[Lori]

Not only is it a politically stupid thing to say, it's just wrong. Study after study has shown that students in bilingual education works, and works much better than immersion education. The problem with immersion education is that, while it does a good job teaching people a language (although no better than bilingual education when we're talking about school-age kids), it doesn't do a good job of teaching them anything else. So in the year or two or possibly three (depending on the age) it takes the student to get a good command of English in an immersion setting, they are falling WAY behind in their academic subjects. It would be like any of us being forced to sit through, say, a history class in a language we didn't know. Whatever material was covered would mean absolutely nothing to us.

Bilingual vs. immersion education is a case where public perception is just completely wrong in the face of research findings. That's why I find it so infuriating when things like this are left to a popular vote, as they were in CA. When we have massive amounts of research data clearly showing that bilingual education is the best way to go, and best serves students, why should people with absolutely no background in ESL education make these decisions?

People want to learn English. The demand for ESL classes far exceeds the supply. Immigrants want their children to learn English. It's simply untrue to imagine that people just don't care if their kids learn English or not, or prefer that they don't learn it. People obviously want to retain their native language, and for adults it's far more comfortable to speak in it, just as most of us English-speakers would probably prefer to speak English at home and with other English-speakers if we were living in another country, but everybody knows how absolutely essential it is that they and especially their children learn English. You don't have to forcibly keep children from speaking Spanish to get them to learn English.

[Marzipan]

Newt Gingrich's asshattery aside, I'm of mixed opinions on the immersion v. bilingual education deal. I believe US immigrants should be required to have a certain level of proficiency in English. When my cousin Hat moved to Paris to open her business, she was not allowed to open up shop until her French was very good. (She had to pass some kind of exams.) I think that is more than fair. My aunt and uncle moved to Israel in September of '05 and their six children were put in Hebrew immersion. They took the same classes as their Israeli counterparts and were expected to attend ulpan (language classes) in their spare time. They floundered for 6 months and now speak beautiful Hebrew. And not only do they speak beautiful Hebrew, they can converse at a much higher level than they would be able to if they were not learning in an immersion setting because they have words for concepts and ideas that would not be covered in more fundamental language classes. But until we find a way to assure that the parents of these children speak English at a certain level, I don't know what the right answer is for educating their children.

I do lean rather in favor of the immersion idea. I switched schools to a religious school in third grade where all of my classmates were speaking pretty decent Hebrew in class and I knew little more than a dozen words and the alphabet. But I survived, and I started speaking Hebrew pretty well. I remeber that I was in GT Hebrew in ninth grade and our teacher (an Israeli woman) had us watch Israeli sitcoms during class. She said that was the best way to learn a language because of all of the subtleties and idioms used. Our exams were great. "When Gilad was speaking to Ita about her unfaithfulness to him, he compared Tal to a ________."

[gr8mommy]

I don't think the research is overwhelmingly in favor of bilingual education lock, stock, and barrel. It depends greatly upon what the goal is---English proficiency, or subject content? It also depends greatly on how old the students are, and what sort of support is received at home.

I believe English should be made the official language of the US, and I believe, like Marci, that some sort of proficiency should be required of immigrants.

[AdinaVerbena]

Newt Gingrich's asshattery aside, I'm of mixed opinions on the immersion v. bilingual education deal. I believe US immigrants should be required to have a certain level of proficiency in English. When my cousin Hat moved to Paris to open her business, she was not allowed to open up shop until her French was very good. (She had to pass some kind of exams.) I think that is more than fair. <snip> But until we find a way to assure that the parents of these children speak English at a certain level, I don't know what the right answer is for educating their children.

Yeah, that.

How many other countries print their ballots in multiple languages, out of curiosity?

[Lori]

I have honestly never seen any valid academic study that said that immersion education had better outcomes. Every single one I've ever seen as shown that bilingual ed has better outcomes. It does seem that, at the level of education research, the issue is settled.

I just don't see how we're serving students by making learning English the only thing they'll get out of school. It's both unnecessary and very problematic. Kids WILL learn English. They just will. There is no doubt about it. Living in the United States, they are going to become fluent speakers of English. They may not become fluent speakers of standard academic English, but that just makes them like the vast majority of people in this country, who they will speak English just as well as. Even if everybody in their home and community speaks Spanish, if they come here as a child, they will learn English. It has always happened with immigrants, and it's not going to change. People thought that Italians were never going to learn English, since they lived in predominantly Italian communities where everyone spoke Italian and their parents didn't speak English, but they learned English. Today we'd think it was ridiculous to think that, unless we forced them into an immersion program in school, a European immigrant wouldn't learn English. Spanish-speaking people are no different. They're no less capable of learning English, and no less willing or interested (and in fact seem to be more of both), than any immigrants who have come before.

But we are putting kids at a serious academic disadvantage if we put them in a situation for a year (or two, or three) where they are not able to understand what is going on in their academic classes. I honestly think that the unacknowledged impact of immersion-only education is that it will produce immigrant children who know English so that they can be really pleasant minimum-wage workers to deal with, but won't move beyond basic skills, so won't move much beyond that. I was a smart kid, and I cannot imagine how I would have felt if, at 12 or 13, my parents moved to another country, and I was suddenly put in a school situation where I couldn't understand anything. The six months or 9 months or a year or two it would have taken me to get to the point where I would have been able to truly understand probably would have killed the love for learning I had. Spanish-speaking kids are just as smart and curious as English-speaking kids. To put them in an education situation where all they are learning is English is not right. Some of these kids are middle-schoolers capable of reading in Spanish at a college level, just like some English-speaking kids are. They should have continuing support in academic achievement in their native language until the time comes when they are comfortable enough with English to move to English language classrooms. It will happen, whether the school teaches them English in an immersion setting, in a bilingual classroom, or doesn't try to teach them at all. But to take smart, capable, curious kids at a very formative time and put them in a situation where they'll feel stupid, less capable, and academically lost for many months if not years, is just not serving their needs.

It's an entirely different issue than the issue of immigrants and English more generally. I don't think there's any reason to make any language the "offical" language of the United States (why not make it a Native American language, since they were here first and there just happened to be more immigrants who spoke English than them?) or to have rules regarding language proficiency at the level of the government (job requirements are one thing, but immigration/residency ones are another), but it's a totally different issue than education. There is no doubt that these kids will learn English no matter what their families or schools or the government do. So the issue is not about making sure they know English, but how to best serve their overall needs.

[Jejune]

I'm torn as to HOW English should be implemented. Daniel learned through immersion, because when Spanish speakers move to Louisiana, there is no other choice, apparently. ;) His English is perfect, as anyone who has met him can testify. However, his mother had gone to college in St. Louis for a while and spoke some English fairly fluently, so even though they did (and do) speak Spanish in their home, he was able to memorize words during the day and bring them home to ask his mother what they meant. He learned a lot of English from Sesame Street. One of the results of learning through TV is that even though he grew up in the South, he has an East Coast urban accent.

Anyway, I happen to think my husband is especially brilliant, but I'm not sure that the way he learned wasn't the best way. I've lived in California my whole life except for those two years of college in Baltimore, and I know that ESL often became a sort of ghetto. The few non English speakers hung out exclusively with each other and didn't integrate much or speak a lot of English.

Actually, though, I think the best solution is one being implemented in several Los Angeles and Portland schools. The schools are bilingual, and are immersion, too. Some classes are in English, some are in Spanish. So far the results have been excellent for both students for whom Spanish is a first language, and for English speaking students. I think both can only benefit.

Oh, and Newt Gingrich can kiss my heinie.

Edited to add: I've been trying to learn Spanish for seven years now. I think I'd benefit from immersion. I can read in Spanish, I can speak a little, and I can understand a good bit, but I've never had a real incentive to be sure I learn. I think I'd need to go to Mexico or Spain or South America to really get my rear in gear.

[Lori]

Edited to add: I've been trying to learn Spanish for seven years now. I think I'd benefit from immersion. I can read in Spanish, I can speak a little, and I can understand a good bit, but I've never had a real incentive to be sure I learn. I think I'd need to go to Mexico or Spain or South America to really get my rear in gear.

I agree that if the intention is for adults to learn a language, and only a language, immersion is probably the quickest way to go. If I were to go to Spain and wanted to learn Spanish, I'd choose an immersion setting.

But, if I wanted to go to Spain in order to take courses in my field, then I certainly wouldn't choose a Spanish-only classroom, because I'd learn nothing.

I think age is a big factor. Take little kids (maybe 3rd grade and younger) and put them in immersion and I doubt they'd have any worse academic outcomes, because at that point they're all learning English. They'll pick it up really fast and won't feel behind. Take an adult and put them in an immersion classroom, and they'll probably do better than through more traditional instruction. But the academic disadvantage to kids from late elementary school to high school just seem too great.

I think that, as a country where most people only speak one language, we set our sights too low, and imagine that it's an either/or thing. Either they speak Spanish well or English well. But, we could do so much better. If you have a school with a lot of native Spanish-speakers, why not offer Spanish-language classes that aren't just remedial classes by another name, but advanced classes in history and literature and science where the native Spanish-speakers could refine their Spanish language skills and non-native Spanish speakers could learn from them? Why not aim for students who are really great writers and readers in both English and Spanish? It's certainly not impossible, since much of the world achieves it. I don't think that just cutting students off from Spanish the minute they enter the classroom does anyone any good. If we had students who speak Spanish advancing their Spanish skills and reading and producing great Spanish writing and talking about complicated historical or scientific or political ideas in Spanish, in school, then maybe its reputation as a "ghetto language" would go away. If it is a "ghetto language" it's not the fault of immigrants, but of the English-speaking society that is so closed to learning any other language or celebrating or honoring anything that isn't produced in English.

[Erika]

How many other countries print their ballots in multiple languages, out of curiosity?


Ours does. We have ballots in both Irish and English. In fact all our government documents are done in both.

[wendygrace]

What Lori said! :) Lori, you are so eloquent.

I am a product of immersion only from Kindergarten. I thought I did ok but I really, I think that I missed out on a lot. I actually couldn't learn to read until my father sat me down and taught me to read in spanish. Once he did that, then English finally clicked.

And have English as the "official language" is silly IMHO. We were built on the back of immigrants, many who didn't speak english. We are finding that those who speak more than one language are able to compete globally moreso than someone who learns only one language. Why would we limit our kids to one language? Why would we handicap our kids that way? I personally think it would be better to make it a requirement that schools teach in at least two languages. And I don't mean teach two languages. I mean teach IN two languages so that kids learn the terms of that subject in the other language. Make being bilingual an intergral part of growing up.

[Polly]

I don't think the research is overwhelmingly in favor of bilingual education lock, stock, and barrel. It depends greatly upon what the goal is---English proficiency, or subject content? It also depends greatly on how old the students are, and what sort of support is received at home.

I believe English should be made the official language of the US, and I believe, like Marci, that some sort of proficiency should be required of immigrants.

Hmmm...I'm of two minds. I don't mind English as the official language. It's good to have something to assimiliate (to some degree-kind of like my Hungarian, Greek, and Czech ancestors who came to the US either through Ellis Island about 100 years ago or my other ancestors who emmigrated from England to the colonies in the early 1700's-) But the US is kidding itself if it thinks that this will magically force all immigrants to learn English and that the need for Spanish speakers/bilingual info will cease within this generation. HAHHAHAHAHAHA! Here's the dilly of a pickle: I got to student teach ESOL as part of my Master's in Fairfax County, VA. It's the home to largest Spanish speaking population in VA's public school system. The real problem isn't making the immigrant parents learn English; the real problem is making them use it equally with Spanish at home. More than half the children in the middle school I worked at were native born citizens. But because Spanish was the only language spoken at home, they had a real problem with English. No, these kids weren't in the lowest level of ESOL, they were in the mid-level. However, it really impacted their ability to learn at grade level. I wish the children could have attended preschool, as that definately would have helped-but OF COURSE! Their parents make too much money to qualify for the waivers for the Headstart preschool program! (I simply adore how the government likes to screw the people who make just enough to get off of full welfare! :beat )

My other education concern are the older kids (ages 14-18) who immigrate to the US when their parents (who have become legal US citizens) send for them. We have many of them in the DC area. The barely speak and write their native languages when they arive here. And there is no use in requiring testing of their English profic. As minors, the are the legal domain of their parents and as such are exempt from testing. Anyhoo-I support tracking (meaning to put them on specific career track). When this happens, the students are taught to read and write in Spanish, basic English and math, and are tested for career aptitude. They make choices from secretarial, computer repair/programming, auto repair/body, air conditioning/heat repair, plumbing, electrical training, carpetry, landscaping, food service including becoming a chef, cosmotology, child care, etc. Depends on what their high school career training center offers. Since they only have 4 years of public school left, the goal is to make them able to obtain and maintain employment. They are usually placed in good internships and many of the programs, like auto repair, come with licensed certification from companies like Ford Motors. So bi-lingual education, in my opinion, prevents these kids from pursuing a life of crime or total life-long dependence on state and federal welfare.

Polly

[Lori]

Why would we limit our kids to one language? Why would we handicap our kids that way? I personally think it would be better to make it a requirement that schools teach in at least two languages. And I don't mean teach two languages. I mean teach IN two languages so that kids learn the terms of that subject in the other language. Make being bilingual an intergral part of growing up.

ITA. We should see the influx of Spanish speakers--as well as other immigrants--as an opportunity. We have the opportunity to get on board with most of the rest of the industrialized world and produce a generation of bilingual speakers. It's ironic that, at the same time that affluent parents really want their children in bilingual school programs so their kids can learn a language other than English, many people want to deny those same programs to poor children and restrict them to only learning English. If schools offered truly bilingual programs, then all the students in the district could benefit from it, and kids could come out being able to communicate comfortably in two languages. It's not something that most Americans are used to, but it's very possible. It's just so sad that we look at Spanish-speaking immigrant children and think "hopefully they'll learn enough English to get by," when we should be encouraging them to be proficient in both English and Spanish, in terms of both writing and speaking, and encouraging English-speaking students to do the same.

Since they only have 4 years of public school left, the goal is to make them able to obtain and maintain employment. They are usually placed in good internships and many of the programs, like auto repair, come with licensed certification from companies like Ford Motors. So bi-lingual education, in my opinion, prevents these kids from pursuing a life of crime or total life-long dependence on state and federal welfare.

The drop-out rate of Hispanic students also has to be considered. It's really, really high. More than 1/4 of Hispanic students don't finish high school, and that's taking all Hispanic students into consideration. When you look at those born outside the U.S., the rates are much higher, and becomes nearly 1/2. Obviously whatever is happening in schools is not serving these students. The vast majority of Spanish-speaking students are not enrolled in bilingual education programs, but are in immersion programs, either formal ones or just by default since there are no bilingual programs available in the school. Their needs are not being met. There are obviously economic factors that are centrally important to the drop-out rate, but if students aren't getting the academic preparation they want and/or need in school, and are just going to be doing work that doesn't require much knowledge of English anyway, then there's no incentive there for them to stay in school.