Judge not, that ye be not judged. [Archive] - Spiffy Moms

Lori

03-30-2007, 09:44 AM

But without judgement, can there be morality or even simply society? Perhaps, "judge and prepare to be called on your judgement as well as being judged yourself" is more realistic.

There's a very interesting book regarding that idea, Judge or Be Judged: Moral Reflection in an Age of Relativism and Fundamentalism by Eric Bain-Selbo. The basic idea is about making judgments that are rooted in an ethic of understanding and of self-reflection, rather than of self-righteousness. Anyway, it's interesting.

Beka

03-30-2007, 09:50 AM

But without judgement, can there be morality or even simply society? Perhaps, "judge and prepare to be called on your judgement as well as being judged yourself" is more realistic.

Even the "judge not" statement is judgmental.

Yes i like that way of looking at it- don't act unless you are willing to be held accountable for your own actions is pretty much my ethos, treating others as a wish to be treated only really holds with me if others are acting in a manner which deserves that level of respect, tact and consideration.

Jejune

03-30-2007, 10:09 AM

Yes, in general, judgment is a good thing, but it can, like any other tool, be used for ill. It's not the judgment itself that is bad, but poor use of it.

Jejune

03-30-2007, 10:18 AM

Brooke

03-30-2007, 10:34 AM

You know what else it reminds me of? Hypocrites. Example: Someone that bitches about negative repping and how they hate the system, then they turn around and negative rep people anonymously. What's the point in that? Isn't that being the same person that you just judged?

It's all still considered judging others. Why speak about how much you don't like something and then turn around and do that thing. How can you judge someone if you do the same thing?

Makes me sick. If you are going to judge others about something, you need to make sure that you don't do it privately, where nobody else can see that you do it. At least if I were to bitch about something, I make sure that I'm not guilty of the same thing. It's absolutely hypocritical to judge someone about something you can be judged about. That kind of judging is what makes my stomach sick and makes me really dislike a person.

We are human, we ALL judge others. Whether we like to or not, it happens. I fully admit that I judge people, I'm human, it happens. But I do try to make sure that I'm not a hypocrite about it. :rolleyes

Jennee

03-30-2007, 10:50 AM

i did say that even i need to remember that. yes we all do it. there has been some drama on numerous boards recently, which got me thinking about people being judged.

Kristen

03-30-2007, 12:18 PM

I thought of something else that's interesting. The original quote means judged by God, but for those of us who don't believe in a God who judges, the quote can only mean anything when it refers to being judged by our fellow human beings.

Not to mention that the Greek word for judging there is, if my memory serves me correctly, krino, which is the type of judging that is deciding if someone is saved or not. That kind of judging IS reserved for God. But there are other places in the New Testament where the other two words for judging are used(diakrino and anakrino), and in some passages we are exhorted to judge(in those cases, judging means discerning right from wrong. ;)

You can't really get through life without using some discerning type of judgement. and if the Bible really means that we can never determine someone else's behavior is wrong, how could we possibly obey the passage in Matthew that tells us to go to someone if they've sinned against us? How can you determine sin if you can't ever "judge"?? `

The important thing to remember is that it is FAR more important to take a hard look at ourselves and our own shortcomings failures, and that we should do that first, before judging someone else's behavior. and, when the time is right to talk to someone else about what they're done, it needs to be done kindly and respectfully. Some of what went on yesterday was kind and respectful and some of it wasn't. But, I see nothing wrong in anyone letting Steph know, kindly, how her behavior made us feel. Being kind and humble doesn't mean we have to be doormats.

Jejune

03-30-2007, 12:54 PM

Kristen, I had no idea about the Greek word. That's fascinating. Thanks very much for sharing that.

Erika

03-30-2007, 01:29 PM

That is fascinating, thanks Kristen. And it is so true, how are we ever going to define our own morality and also what is "right and wrong" if we do not judge others and their behaviours.

I find the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" such a flippant statement and one that is so easily thrown about when things get a little heated. I judge, you judge, we ALL judge. I make judgements about people and situations quite frequently. And what about murderers, rapists, paedphiles, even shoplifters? Are we not supposed to judge them? By all means take the time to find out the background. To not do so could lead to rash judgements.

As for the recent drama, honestly, unless you are personally involved, I don't see the need to bring it up now. It happened, its done, lets move on. It was stupid anyway and one poster blew the whole thing out of proportion.

Shana

03-30-2007, 09:39 PM

Kristen, GREAT post.

I try, so hard, to be very very unjudgemental. One of my biggest pet peeves is people who judge others, who are hypocritical in their judgements. IN MY MIND (and mine alone, agree or not it's just ME)... God is the ONLY one who can judge another's behavior.

However, having said that, I do recognize that is an "ideal", and not always realistic.

Interesting. I need to go back and see what all the hullabaloo is about.

Beka

03-31-2007, 02:16 AM

Kristen that is fascinating (and i am in awe of you having such dedication that you've learnt about such things rather than just beinh blindly lead by what you think the bible means but actually researching, studying and learning to interpret it rather than just read it without actual consideration of the underlying meanings- i am impressed!)

The only person i can think of in my life who doesn't use a great deal of judgement is probably Jude and as a result he does many many bizarre things in an average week as he excercises little/no judgement and just lives for the moment but wow is he having fun LOL 4 years in his world have already had the excitment and freedom most of us don't get in 80 LOL

Kristen

04-02-2007, 07:21 PM

Beka, I have to be honest and tell you that the reason I know this is not because I am well-versed in New Testament Greek, but because I had a really great Bible study leader when I was a teenager. :p She does know Greek very well, and this whole judging bit is probably one of the most useful things she ever taught me.

Saying, "I think judging others is bad!" is a bit like saying, "You can never know anything for sure.". If you can never know anything for sure, you can't be sure of that statement. and if you think that judging others is bad, well, you have just made a judgement! It's like saying everyone should live in love and peace, and that you can't stand those people who won't live in love and peace. :giggle

Anyhow, you can't really get away from judging...the key is using judgement correctly.

Kristen

04-02-2007, 07:43 PM

It's not the judgment itself that is bad, but poor use of it.

Heh. I just said that in my last post, not realizing you'd already said it.

'doh!

Maleah

04-02-2007, 08:36 PM

The only person i can think of in my life who doesn't use a great deal of judgement is probably Jude and as a result he does many many bizarre things in an average week as he excercises little/no judgement and just lives for the moment but wow is he having fun LOL 4 years in his world have already had the excitment and freedom most of us don't get in 80 LOL

:lmao I so know what you mean. Jeremiah is a lot like that.

Kate

04-02-2007, 10:23 PM

Is this in reference to something in particular, like what happened on the boards yesterday?

A little context would help or it just feels very "holier than thou".

My thoughts exactly...I think that without any explanations, and knowing that this exact post is in more than one place, it comes across as being very judgemental in a very passive-aggressive manner.

Marzipan

04-03-2007, 06:50 AM

This was my first thought when I read the post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJ78rSqdGY

Others have expounded on the idea of judgment quite eloquently, so I shall just leave you all to consider the lilies.

Beka

04-03-2007, 06:53 AM

LOL Marci i love that film- the women at the stoning has me in stitches everytime LOL

Christine

04-03-2007, 07:01 AM

Came across this, for any who are interested.

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/judging/index.htm

off-kilter

04-03-2007, 02:02 PM

Marzipan, I now must purchase that on DVD. I have it on tape and have not upgraded, but you make me realize I want my kids to watch that someday!!

Marzipan

04-03-2007, 02:10 PM

Good for you! Sophie couldn't pick the Disney princesses from a lineup, but we have her fully steeped in The Princess Bride. I'd say the next stop on the geek train is Monty Python. So you've inspired me right back! LOL

Lori

04-04-2007, 07:12 PM

I was thinking about this in terms of the story posted about the fifth graders having sex in a classroom. Obviously, we can't not judge that situation. It was wrong. To pretend that it was neutral or something we can't judge is to be dishonest about what the vast majority of people understand to be good and right.

But I think the problem is that we stop at judging and don't attempt understanding, or avoid understanding because we think that if we try to understand we have to give up any sense of what's right. I don't find that very useful. It's one thing to judge a situation like that as wrong, and another to jump from that to the idea that the children involved are simply depraved individuals who we will all be better off having out of our schools and society, and that's all there is to it. I think that when we use judgment as a way to write people off, or abandon our responsibilty to them, or to get out of having to understand why people can do pretty awful things, then we're judging in a way that isn't useful or productive.

I think the problem is that judgment and compassion, in practice, are often mutually exclusive. It's very hard to see how some public figures who are continually denouncing certain groups of people can honestly love them or have compassion for them, even if they say they do. But that doesn't mean that it's not possible to make moral judgments in a way that still shows compassion and respects the humanity of other people. And in the end judgment, I think, shouldn't be the basis for how we treat others or what kinds of actions we take in the world. Love and compassion should. But I think that judgment can be tied to those things, because if we don't have a way of determining what is loving and what is compassionate and what is just (determinations that would require judgment), then we can't act in a love or compassionate or just way.

Polly

04-04-2007, 07:27 PM

Unless of course, you are a judge. Then you're just not doing your job!;)

Polly

Danielle

04-04-2007, 07:32 PM

LOL Polly.

Jennee

04-05-2007, 05:18 AM

ok, i only came back here today to "check up" on what was going on in regards to this and the drama.
i was very upset to see the way a couple people attacked steph. some people pointed out her mistakes, but a couple people said some down right hurtful things. how could you say you can see why she doesnt have many friends irl?
hows this, if you have nothing better to do then sit on here and insult other moms who are here looking for support and acceptance that may be hard for them to get from the people in their lives, then i have to wonder, how many friends irl do you have? what are your kids doing?
do you think its nice of me to say that on here?

i have told steph about another site, she joined and is doing great there. i am really enjoying getting to know her. oh and as for her using a different user name here then else where, who cares? lots of people do that.

after seeing this drama i have realized i dont want to be part of this site. what if i say something you guys dont like? are you going to attack me like that too? i dont need that in my life so i will no longer be posting on this board. although im sure some of you really dont care if im here or not

those people who are on 20ish as well, i will see you over there.
good bye

Beka

04-05-2007, 06:21 AM

how many friends irl do you have? what are your kids doing?
do you think its nice of me to say that on here?

I'll answer your questions first... IRL friends- probably 6 true ones, around 30+ i'd class as casual ones, many many more aquaintances and "through my husband" work collegue friends.

Kids? Chase is playing lego with Jude and Dylan- making a Harry Potter castle around 3 feet from my feet, Loki is lay sleeping on my lap as he just nursed to sleep... how about yours?

Do i think it is nice of you to say that on here? I can't see why i wouldn't it's a community, you're allowed to talk, you're allowed to ask questions- i have no issue with you doing any of those things...

Now back to the orignal point...

I don't think you can call it attacking when you actually take into account Steph took a thread and posted it in another parenting community in order to demonise another member by distorting the manner in which it was posted - personally i call that defending someone who had no idea they were being flamed on another site which Polly was and without good cause as if her quote was used in the context in which it had been originally posted it would have been very plain to see the humour in it.

I can not see how visiting a forum, taking a post made by another person, posting it in a total unrelated community in order to belittle what they have said is in anyway "here looking for support and acceptance" - if it is it's the weirdest way i have ever seen to attempt to gain that. Please, she is far from some innocent poor defenseless being in all of this.

Please face it- she was called on something she should be entirely accountable for, couldn't handle that and didn't like the fact this community has enough sense to tell people when they disapprove of something rather than to hug them, cover it over and move on accepting dishonest, two faced members who are trolling for ammo to use to their own advantage on other sites.

Jennee

04-05-2007, 06:29 AM

i can understand people saying "i am upset that you did...." but some people went over board i think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysFan View Post
I don't have many friends IRL.

With an attitude like yours, I'm not that surprised.

this just isnt nice and i dont think it was called for.

anyway, we dont need to start this all over again. i just needed to say what i needed to say.

Polly

04-05-2007, 06:29 AM

I'll answer your questions first... IRL friends- probably 6 true ones, around 30+ i'd class as casual ones, many many more aquaintances and "through my husband" work collegue friends.

Kids? Chase is playing lego with Jude and Dylan- making a Harry Potter castle around 3 feet from my feet, Loki is lay sleeping on my lap as he just nursed to sleep... how about yours?

Do i think it is nice of you to say that on here? I can't see why i wouldn't it's a community, you're allowed to talk, you're allowed to ask questions- i have no issue with you doing any of those things...

Now back to the orignal point...

I don't think you can call it attacking when you actually take into account Steph took a thread and posted it in another parenting community in order to demonise another member by distorting the manner in which it was posted - personally i call that defending someone who had no idea they were being flamed on another site which Polly was and without good cause as if her quote was used in the context in which it had been originally posted it would have been very plain to see the humour in it.

I can not see how visiting a forum, taking a post made by another person, posting it in a total unrelated community in order to belittle what they have said is in anyway "here looking for support and acceptance" - if it is it's the weirdest way i have ever seen to attempt to gain that. Please, she is far from some innocent poor defenseless being in all of this.

Please face it- she was called on something she should be entirely accountable for, couldn't handle that and didn't like the fact this community has enough sense to tell people when they disapprove of something rather than to hug them, cover it over and move on accepting dishonest, two faced members who are trolling for ammo to use to their own advantage on other sites.

Thanks, Beka. :squeeze

Polly

Jennee

04-05-2007, 06:35 AM

beka, i reread your post on there, i think it was worded very nicely. i dont think you said anything mean at all. this post wasnt directed at you at all.

Beka

04-05-2007, 06:42 AM

That's fine, i just think it's best left now- Steph has obviously found a home where she can feel comfortable and so there seems little need to bring it back up when she expressed a distinct intention to no longer post here.

Waving good morning at you there Polly... must be early in your part of the world? (lunchtime here..)

Jennee

04-05-2007, 06:47 AM

i agree, i just wanted to let people know that after im done with this im not coming back because of the people who did say mean things. i do not believe those people are on 20ish so those who are, ill see you over there.

Brooke

04-05-2007, 08:57 AM

If you are going to leave, then just leave. I never understood why there always has to be a post starting drama about why someone is leaving.

And by the way, the grass is not always greener on the other side. There's a difference at our site vs the other ones you're a member of, our members are free to speak their minds on the public boards here. Our members are encouraged to discuss and disagree with other members/staff in the open. You have no idea if people on other sites are mean because they won't say anything to you in public. Nothing will be brought up on the main boards about it. It's not all sunshines and roses here and if someone does something and they need to be called on being a dumbass, so be it.

If a person can't handle that and learn from their mistakes, then there's no point in being a member here. We don't need the petty drama that happens at other parenting sites on the net. It's not what we're about.

off-kilter

04-05-2007, 08:59 AM

Ah, so that's the story. I had wondered. I'm pretty comfortable with the judgments I made there, though I am, of course, willing to reconsider should it be necessary.

Jennee, I'm sorry you yourself have judged the people here as being mean, but if this place isn't working for you, I hope you find what you're looking for elsewhere.

04-05-2007, 10:13 PM

I understand if you do not feel this is the site for you. When Brooke and I set up this site, we didn't intend it to be a support site. I wonder if you thought it would be more like 20ish. In fact, we are intentionally trying to be different. We wanted a place where things could be discussed....rationally. We wanted a place where people could feel free to say how they feel about issues but also had to be prepared that others might and would openly disagree. Sure support can be found as people get to know each other but we never intended this to be a hand holding, singing kumbaya type of place. The issue at heart is respect for other members. I understand you might feel you weren't respected. But, I consider what Steph did to another member highly disrespectful and quite frankly, this thread started out of bitterness, doesn't fit that bill either.

You, and Steph, in fact, where the first big dramas on the board. We have had many debates and discussions in which many people disagreed and no one caused a scene. It isn't a matter of disagreement, it is a matter of temper tantrums and drama. If we aren't giving you what you need, then you are right, there are many many other places on the internet where you can find your niche.

Jejune

04-05-2007, 11:36 PM

I can not see how visiting a forum, taking a post made by another person, posting it in a total unrelated community in order to belittle what they have said is in anyway "here looking for support and acceptance" - if it is it's the weirdest way i have ever seen to attempt to gain that. Please, she is far from some innocent poor defenseless being in all of this.

The only thing I would want to add to Beka's excellent post is that posting something elsewhere, out of context, with an attempt to rouse other people's anger, is suspiciously trolly behavior, because it seems to be pushing for a board war. Having been on several boards that have experienced board wars, I'm not eager to see one here.

Jennee, I really don't understand why you feel so called upon to defend someone who did not behave in a defensible way. Being "nice" seems to mean only saying nasty things out of hearing, or at least seems to be a one way street. No one would have had a problem if you had posted in the thread to say to people that you didn't think their posts were kind or necessary. Instead you started this thread, which is passive aggressive and pretty high handed.

Oh well. At least it sparked an interesting discussion and Kristen and Christine were able to enlighten us about different words for judging.

Lori, I found your last post very interesting as well. I think that you're right about compassion and judgment sometimes failing to mix. I'd need to think on that more.

Danielle

04-06-2007, 07:53 AM

Sure support can be found as people get to know each other but we never intended this to be a hand holding, singing kumbaya type of place.

Damn! Now I'm leaving. I only came for the kumbaya :D.

ETA Very well said Jo.

Erika

04-06-2007, 01:01 PM

And the funny thing, the other board that Steph posted at attacking what Polly had said, also agree that she shouldn't have posted the thread and that she was inviting trollish behaviour.

I personally have always disliked drama threads brought on by someone who is leaving but has to make a song and dance about it. THe site doesn't suit you? fine. Leave. But we shouldn't have to change the site to suit one person and their hurt feelings.