British Schools Ban Face Veils

[Polly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6466221.stm

Interesting. Would the US follow suit? And would it be constitutional?

Polly

[Jo]

I don't think it would be constitutional since Congress can't make a laws that prohibits the free exercise of religion. I also think it is ridiculous to consider making someone remove a veil simply because Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said. Give the kids a pop quiz and see if they were paying attention for goodness sake!

It sounds luck secularism going amuck. It is close to running but not there yet. They can always put security measures in place that are sensitive it the students in question if they are really that worried about who is actually under the veil. But if a child comes from a family that considers the veil as part of their religious beliefs, I have a problem with the schools and courts not respecting it.

[Desirae]

It doesn;t make sense to me at all that they're banning them. :(

[Lori]

I think that because Europe doesn't have the kinds of established laws about religious freedom that we have in the US, it's much harder for anti-Muslim sentiment to be translated into laws limiting the rights of Muslims to practice or express their religion. At the same time, I think we also have an idea in the US that every single expression of every single religion must always be accomodated, which I don't think is useful or true.

I see this as different from barring head coverings. While there's no educational basis for that--I've had a number of Muslim students who wear hijab, and it doesn't have any effect at all on their ability to interact or participate in the classroom--I can see how a student wearing a face veil could be a problem. So much of communication comes from facial expressions that a teacher being very limited in seeing a student's facial expressions would effectively limit the kinds of communication that could occur. I can understand schools wanting to prevent that. Muslims have very different ideas about whether facial veils--or even head coverings--are actually required or are a matter of personal discretion, so it's not like wearing a face veil is a requirement of Islam. I think that when we start letting extremists in any religion claim that their set of beliefs or practices are "required" and must always be accomodated, that's losing sight of what religious freedom is really all about. This has come up a lot in textbook cases, where it's been claimed by some conservative Christian families that the practices of free market capitalism and unrestricted gun ownership are essential tenets of their faith, and so any reading in a school textbook that is critical of either (regardless of if it is balanced by other texts or not) is violating their religious freedom. I think it's pretty obvious that that's absurd, and that very specific or extreme ideas don't necessarily need to be accomodated when they would place a big burden on the teacher. I do think it's possible that a student in a face veil would place a larger burden on the teacher trying to communicate fully with her, and that the practice is not a necessary expression of the faith but a rather extreme one, that it wouldn't be violating basic religious freedom to put some limits on it in some very specific settings.

So, while I think it would fall under the realm of protected religious expression in the United States, I can see both sides. I don't think that freedom of religion means that every expression of every religion needs to be accepted and accomodated in every setting. And in a case like this where the given expression of religion would place serious limitations on the students' ability to communicate fully, then I can see it being a question, and I don't have a problem with different policies being discussed and considered.

[Lori]

But if a child comes from a family that considers the veil as part of their religious beliefs, I have a problem with the schools and courts not respecting it.

The concern I'd have with that is how far it could be taken, and how, if taken to the extreme, that idea could effectively shut down public education.

There are all sorts of things that families might consider part of their religious beliefs. I don't think that means that schools must accomodate or allow for all of them, especially when the practice is contentious and potentially disruptive. If a school were forced to accomodate every tenet of every family's personal religious beliefs and practices, the list of conflicting needs would be so long public education would be impossible.

Some charasmatic Christians would consider it an essential part of their faith to speak in tongues, and to lay prostrate when overtaken by the power of the spirit. That's fine. But, a student speaking in tongues in school, or laying prostrate to pray in the middle of a class, would be highly disruptive. I don't think it's limiting that student's religious freedom, or his or her family's, to say that, when in the classroom, they have to refrain from that particular expression of their religious beliefs. A facial covering isn't as obviously disruptive, but I do think that the limitations it would put on the communication that occurs through facial expressions could ultimately have a very serious effect on the teacher's ability to communicate with the student.

That's not to say that it's something that should definitely be banned, but I do think it's a question worth asking, when it is something that would have a serious impact on the student's communication, unlike a head scarf, which doesn't. And if it is decided to be something that is more of a disruption or impediment to student learning--which some expressions of some religions are--then I have no problem with it being barred in public school classrooms. A family who has a serious problem with that has the option of private school or homeschooling, just like the family who has a serious problem with their child not be allowed to speak in tongues in the middle of class should they feel so moved would have those options. If it is something that is truly disruptive to the classroom environment, then I think it's fine to bar it, even if it's a religious expression, since families do have the option of a different educational setting.

[Beka]

well as i am in Britain- my opinion? It's a classic panick response from the government playing into the hands of the bigotted, xenophobic few for fear of losing their vote and it sickens me.

I live in and exceptionally diverse area of England- i'm just outside Englands second city which has an exceptionally high muslim & sikh population- both of whom would be effected by this ludicrous new law. I have grown up my entire life attended classes with friends who wear full hijab and niqab- there has been no sudden mad surge in women and girls doing this, it's girls who have always been raised to do so who will be effected by it, they don't do it to be contraversial or awkward they do it out of a sense of modesty and empowerment as women, just in the same way as someone else may wear a below the knee skirt or a lose-unfitted blouse.

In England right now we have an extremely sad situation where the government is playing into the hands of the Enoch Powell generation and the white extremists (and it is quite disturbing and startling when an event like the London Tube bombings occur to realise how many of your collegues do have well hidden racial prejudices bubbling under the surface and you'd never have realised until an event like this draws out anti-muslim opinions) and we're doing so out of panick, we're suddenly marking anyone muslim, who we have existed along side for several generations in many communities, with the potential terrorist brand- just in the same sad way all Irish in england were branded throughout the 60s and 70s with the prevailence of the IRA.

I find it ridiculous that we've bowed down to that and are dictating to these girls over their head coverings. We're going to see a sad state of affairs where many muslim girls will be withdrawn from or withdraw themselves from state education and they are currently a social group where it is quite likely they will underachieve anyway- it'll lead to them gaining little or no adequate education and lessen their life chances which i find exceedingly sad. Alternatively we will see an up surge in muslim schools where extreme muslim values are more likely to be taught (as it will be only the most devout and staunchly muslim who can fund their children attending such private schools) and i find that far more dangerous than a few teachers unable to see if a girl looks enthusiastic- take a look around any classroom of teenagers, if you see more than half of them smiling enthusiastically it's a sure sign it's only 5 minutes til home time!

i think to sum it up what bugs me most about this is this was never an issue raised by schools before 9/11 or the London tube bombings- it's a direct response to hysteria which it why i find it the wrong action to take. It's not like Hijab and Niqab are sudden fashion trends but the "need" for them to be removed in schools suddenly came about with the terrorist events, i don't believe a person should have their religious rights removed because of an extreme few parading falsely under the banner of their religion.

[Polly]

Hey Beka-are public schools in England same sex at any age? I can't remember.

Hmm....well, personally I've thought same sex classes (optional of course) in American public schools might not only be the answer for this problem but studies have shown that girls perform better in a single gendered class. And since even the most religious Muslims agree that the woman's face can be uncovered when they are in the presence of only women (doesn't matter what the other women's religious affliation is) that a same sex class taught by a female teacher is the answer.

Polly

[Beka]

it is very unusual to find a state funded school which has even single sex classes let alone still single sex- they do exist but the majority of them are private fee paying schools which are out of the reach of most ordinary people (and muslim families & other ethnic minorities are statistically more likely to be lower income in the UK) A few schools do seperate boys and girls to teach certain aspects of social studies, religious studies & science but again that is also extremely rare and doesn't often happen.