Spin off to the sex ed thread-what about sexuality issues?

[Jo]

The article Polly posted also discussed the differences between states and their approach to teaching about sexuality issues. How much should public schools cover this issue?

Here is the article again:
Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031701123.html)

[gr8mommy]

I don't think schools should be teaching 'sexuality'. That brings in too many moral values issues. I think they should stick to the biology of puberty and reproduction and leave it at that.

[Lori]

I honestly don't know. On the one hand, I don't think it's the place of schools to take a definitive stance on controversial moral issues. On the other hand, harassment of gay and lesbian students is a very real, very serious issue, and I do think it needs to be addressed. I think that figuring out how to promote tolerance and respect of gay and lesbian people so that gay and lesbian students (and students perceived as gay and lesbian) are not subject to so much harassment and abuse in schools, while also respecting that students and their families are going to have a wide range of views on the morality of homosexuality, is a difficult thing, but not impossible.

One thing I think is that facts need to be acknowledged. Some people are gay. In fact, about 3-8% of people are gay, depending on the study done. So, pretending that homosexuality doesn't exist isn't educating students, because it does. And, acknowledging that it exists--that there are gay and lesbian people in the world, and in the classroom--isn't pushing an agenda on anyone, just accurately describing reality.

I think that the feelings of gay and lesbian students must always be taken into consideration, because they exist in every school, and in every classroom, whether we want to admit it or not. So teaching that homosexuality is a "public health risk," aside from being factually untrue (lesbians, for example, have a far lower rate of STDs than any other group), is a hurtful and damaging statement. Gay and lesbian students already face enough pressure and rejection that teachers don't need to heap more on top of that. I think that also means that teachers need to always stop students from using homophobic language, just like they'd hopefully stop students from using racist language. I think that classes should be taught as if there are gay and lesbian students there, because there are. So if something is going to be hurtful or damaging to a students who's gay, it doesn't belong in the classroom.

Obviously, a public school classroom is not the place to teach that homosexuality is or is not moral. It's not the place to teach them that premarital sex is or is not moral, either. Both of those issues are issues of sectarian morality about which there is a wide spectrum of opinions, and I think more harm than good would come from attempting to address all of them, and certainly a lot of harm would come from only addressing some of them.

But, I also think that there is a place for teaching non-sectarian morality in public schools. There are certain virtues like honesty and respect that are so universal and rooted in most religious and secular traditions that it's not pushing a sectarian set of beliefs on students to teach them. In the realm of sex, the idea of respect in sexual relationship and the absolute necessity of sexual relationships being consensual are moral issues that are so universal that I think it's fine for them to be included in public schools, and that they should be. I'd put tolerance in there, too. We should treat people who are different from us in a respectful way, which is how I'd define tolerance. It doesn't mean agreeing with people, or encouraging them, or promoting anything, but just accepting that in a diverse society people will live and believe in diverse ways, and that people deserve respect even if they live in ways that are not popular. Teaching students, in a school where harassment of gay and lesbian students in a serious problem, that all students--no matter what their perceived sexuality--must be treated in a kind and respectful way is not, IMO, pushing sectarian morality. It's promoting a kind of universal morality that nearly all people would agree on. And I absolutely think there is a need for that in schools. One role of schools is to produce good citizens. Being gay or not being gay, having sex before marriage or not having sex before marriage, are simply not things that make us good citizens, but treating others with fairness and respect does.

[Lori]

I hate to go on about this, but the issue of the treatment of gay and lesbian students in schools is one that really concerns me.

I just wanted to add that I think there are a lot of misperceptions that gay and lesbian students are somehow accepted or even "cool" now because bisexual experimentation among teenage girls is "hip" in some places. But, that is absolutely not the case. The kind of bisexuality that is "cool" is entirely performative, where girls make out with other girls in front of their boyfriends, completely for the pleasure of the boys. That IS okay in a lot of schools now. It's totally fine for two heterosexual girls to make out in order to be sexy and turn guys on.

But, being gay is still not okay, especially not for male students. It's one thing to be a cute sexy girl who makes out with her best friend to turn their boyfriends on, and another thing entirely to be a lesbian who isn't cute or sexy or interested in turning guys on, or to be a gay male. The rise in bisexual experimentation among girls hasn't led to better treatment of gay and lesbian students, or of students who are perceived as being gay. They are still harassed at alarmingly high rates, and are still subject to abuse from both teachers and classmates that is just appalling. And the suicide rates among gay and lesbian teens are just shockingly high, which is mainly due to their rejection by families and communities, but the abuse they receive at school obviously plays some part in it.

So the idea that it is somehow "wrong" to teach students, explicity, to be respectful and tolerant of gay and lesbian students makes no sense to me. It's a real issue with real consequences, and I don't see how anyone, regardless of what they think about the morality of homosexuality, would think it's okay for gay and lesbian students to be harassed and abused on a regular basis. The only way to stop it is to be up front about it, and to explicitly address sexually-oriented bullying, and to explicitly state that it is not okay. When we have tolerance or anti-bullying programs that address all differences EXCEPT sexual ones, what that tells kids is that bullying is wrong UNLESS somebody is gay, and that everyone is entitled to respect UNLESS they happen to be gay. It just makes the problem worse. I sometimes wonder if people think that bullying of gay and lesbian students is a good thing because it will turn them straight, but if that were the case, almost nobody would be gay. Decades of harassment of gay and lesbian students hasn't caused them to stop being gay. I just think that when it's a matter of a serious practical issue and a pretty universal moral issue--treating others with respect--and a sectarian set of beliefs about sexual practices--that being gay is wrong--obviously teaching about respect has to win out. It's just shameful that there aren't more programs in schools that explicitly address this very serious problem and aren't more schools that are willing to take it seriously.

[Kristi]

I am on the fence about that one. On one hand i don't think it is really the schools place to get involved in issues of sexuality. There are alot of moral isssues and even religious issues for some students that could get all tangled up in that.

But there are homosexual students in HS's today and I think that the school shoulc try to explain that they are people too and to be respectful of their decisions. I saw alot of gay and lesbian students in my high school get picked on all the time. Maybe if the schools had taught more about it during our sex ed classes then it would not have happened as much.

Then again that is the way with anyone who is different in HS. They are bound to get picked on.(Not that it makes it right) But if they teach abot homosexuality should they then teach about everything that could make one student different from another. I just don't know if I think it is the school's place to get involved in things like that or not. Ideally all parents would teach their children that is unacceptable to tease, pick on, or be violent towards those who are different. But all parents don't and even if they do some kids don't listen. I don't know what responsiblity the school should have for teaching these thngs.

[gr8mommy]

I think respect for self and others can be taught without sexuality---straight, gay/lesbian, tran, or bi---being brought into the mix.

[Jo]

I think the school has a large responsibility to teach respect towards everyone. It isn't just gay/lesbian/bisexual students who are bullied and treated horribly. It shouldn't be tolerated on any level towards any student. There is one rule in Mira's class, it is you must be respectful. That means respectful of others, yourself and the work materials. Everything pretty much falls under that rule one way or another. Simply teaching respect from the ground up, IMO covers all those issues.

I don't have a problem with public schools discussing these issues on a basic level, I just don't know that a ton of class time needs to be spent on it. I think there are more important educational issues that my tax dollars could be spent on.

[Kristen]

I agree with gr8mommy on this one. and I am so glad that I don't have to worry about this as it relates to my children, since they're going to be here at home. :p

[Lori]

Simply teaching respect from the ground up, IMO covers all those issues.

I do agree to a certain extent, but I do think the fact that homosexuality is not usually mentioned when respect and tolerance are taught is a problem, and a big part of why harassment of gay and lesbian students often go unchecked.

If respect were always only taught generally, that would be one thing. But, we teach kids specifically about being respectful to people of other races, of other religions, with disabilities, of different ethnicities, and other things along those lines. If sexuality is left out of that, I really do think it sends that message that students should respect everyone except gay students. They shouldn't bully anybody unless they happen to be gay. And, honestly, I think a lot of parents promote that attitude in their kids, and our society at large does. We have no problem scapegoating and vilifying gay and lesbian people, and it's so easy to see how that translate to young people bullying and abusing them.

The other issue is that, in general, sex itself is not what's at issue when we're talking about K-12 kids. It's rarely that someone discovers another student having gay sex and then starts mocking them. It's that a certain student seems to be gay, because they don't fit with whatever the prevailing gender norms are. Maybe they are gay, maybe they aren't. Sometimes students are harassed because it's discovered that they are gay and are attracted to people of the same sex, but even in those cases it's the attraction, not sex itself, that's what causes the harassment. Students perceived as gay or lesbian aren't harassed because they are having gay sex; they're harassed because they are either attracted to people of the same sex or because they simply don't fit into the gender norms of the community. So it's not like discussions of gay sex are necessary, because that's not the issue. The issue is that gender and sexuality are expressed in a diversity of ways, and that just because somebody doesn't fit in to what the norm is, doesn't mean that it's okay to torment them. The only morality at issue is the morality of treating other people with respect.

[Desirae]

I agreewith gr8mommy and Kristen here. ;)

[Polly]

Teach everyone to act (I said ACT-I understand that personal opinions on morality inables respectful feelings) in a respectful manner and clearly explain the school's policy on behavior towards gay, lesbian, bi, and transgendered students. This also means whether or not the use of the words "fag" or "dyke" etc, are permitted or are punishable offences.

Teach factual data-stats,etc. Also that there different opinions on what causes sexuality.

Polly

[Jo]

I do agree to a certain extent, but I do think the fact that homosexuality is not usually mentioned when respect and tolerance are taught is a problem, and a big part of why harassment of gay and lesbian students often go unchecked.

If respect were always only taught generally, that would be one thing. But, we teach kids specifically about being respectful to people of other races, of other religions, with disabilities, of different ethnicities, and other things along those lines. If sexuality is left out of that, I really do think it sends that message that students should respect everyone except gay students. They shouldn't bully anybody unless they happen to be gay. And, honestly, I think a lot of parents promote that attitude in their kids, and our society at large does. We have no problem scapegoating and vilifying gay and lesbian people, and it's so easy to see how that translate to young people bullying and abusing them.

The other issue is that, in general, sex itself is not what's at issue when we're talking about K-12 kids. It's rarely that someone discovers another student having gay sex and then starts mocking them. It's that a certain student seems to be gay, because they don't fit with whatever the prevailing gender norms are. Maybe they are gay, maybe they aren't. Sometimes students are harassed because it's discovered that they are gay and are attracted to people of the same sex, but even in those cases it's the attraction, not sex itself, that's what causes the harassment. Students perceived as gay or lesbian aren't harassed because they are having gay sex; they're harassed because they are either attracted to people of the same sex or because they simply don't fit into the gender norms of the community. So it's not like discussions of gay sex are necessary, because that's not the issue. The issue is that gender and sexuality are expressed in a diversity of ways, and that just because somebody doesn't fit in to what the norm is, doesn't mean that it's okay to torment them. The only morality at issue is the morality of treating other people with respect.

I don't think children should be taught respect because of x,y, and z. I feel that it actually perpetuates differences. I feel they should be taught respect for people period. I don't agree with how things are taught or how a new category of people to respect enters the discussion based on the going issue. The issue for me is respect and respect period.

Kids are always going to be tormented for differences outside of sexuality, race, religion, ethnicity etc. We need to instill that it isn't acceptable from the beginning. We won't be able to control all of it because of the social processes they are going through. But we could minimize the damage.

[Beka]

I think the school has a large responsibility to teach respect towards everyone. It isn't just gay/lesbian/bisexual students who are bullied and treated horribly. It shouldn't be tolerated on any level towards any student. There is one rule in Mira's class, it is you must be respectful. That means respectful of others, yourself and the work materials. Everything pretty much falls under that rule one way or another. Simply teaching respect from the ground up, IMO covers all those issues.

I don't have a problem with public schools discussing these issues on a basic level, I just don't know that a ton of class time needs to be spent on it. I think there are more important educational issues that my tax dollars could be spent on.


yep for me i have to say "what Jo said" - i do think it needs touching on because some kids are stuck feeling extremely confused unable to speak about this and every child deserves the opportunity to realise their feelings ARE valid and many won't have that opportunity if their upbringing is staunchly against homosexuality or bisexuality (for either religious or social reasons) yes they have to respect their parents wishes as a child but by high school they are fast becoming adults where it's going to be far healthier to accept their feelings and who they are rather than to repress them (unless of course they wish to- i do realise there are those with homesexual tendancies who chose to supress them for their religious beliefs)

In England sadly we have a law which means teachers can not legally talk to students about homosexuality (i think it is something like article 29?? i don't know i'll look it up) but i know it prevents teachers and education staff discussing it even if a student directly approaches them which i find really really sad, the most they can do is advise them to seek external counselling or support but many kids are approaching a teacher as the only reputable and trusted source of information outside of the family home.

[gr8mommy]

I don't see why sexuality needs to be mentioned in particular when teaching respect, or why sexuality needs to be a classroom topic. Kids get teased for anything and everything that sets them apart---whether you have X many zits, or your hair is too frizzy/too straight/too curly/too greasy, or your socks don't match your outfit, your nose is too big, whatever. Teaching kids (and showing them by example) to respect another person simply because they are a fellow human being with feelings is all that is necessary.

Let me tell you, someone who is confused about their feelings or their sexuality is NOT going to bring it up in the classroom---if they talk about it at all, they'll find someone whom they trust, who will have a private conversation with them, and who they think will be supportive. That person may be at school, or maybe not. Beyond that, I think it could possibly make things WORSE and be more embarrassing for a kid in that situation, who might even feel singled out by such a discussion.

[Jejune]

In a sex ed class, I think the issue should at least be brought up, as in saying that homosexuals exist, without a moral judgment of any kind. I know my sex ed class talked about the issues that can arise between males and females, and in that context, I think some discussion of homosexuality is necessary. A homosexual student may not become pregnant, but is still at risk for sexually transmitted diseases and needs to be aware of all issues of safety involved in sexuality. I don't think morality or respect need to be broached in sex ed, except in terms of self respect and a general need to respect others, especially those with whom you are involved in a relationship, sexual or not.

[Polly]

I certainly agree that kids get teased for anything. But they get beaten up for being gay. That's why homosexuality and the school's policy on treatment of homosexual students needs to be very clear.

Polly

[Lori]

I certainly agree that kids get teased for anything. But they get beaten up for being gay.

And not only that, but the rejection that teens face for being gay or perceived as gay takes a serious toll, and leads to very high rates of attempted suicide. Obviously there are all kinds of kids who come from families that are rejecting or cruel, but in many cases, if a kid is made fun of at school for being another race or religion or overweight or too thin or disabled or anything along those lines, they can turn to supportive families. Very often, gay teens can't. So the abuse they receive at school takes a much larger toll, when it's part of a larger rejection by their families and religious communities and a general climate that sees them as abominations.

I subbed in high schools for a while, and the most prevalent, cruel, and completely ignored forms of harassment were always around homosexuality. Always. There wasn't anything that even came close to it. It is just such a serious and prevalent problem, with very real effects, that I think it needs to be singled out and addressed, because unfortunately far too many teachers--who would step in if a student was being teased for being another race or having a disability or for their religious beliefs--are perfectly willing to stand and do nothing when students are tormented for being gay.

[gr8mommy]

I certainly agree that kids get teased for anything. But they get beaten up for being gay. That's why homosexuality and the school's policy on treatment of homosexual students needs to be very clear.

Polly

They also get beaten up for looking at some other guy's girlfriend a little too long, going out with some girl's boyfriend behind her back, being in the chess club, being fat, being Jewish, whatever. I think schools need a policy on violence and bullying for all students, and there is no need to single out homosexual kids.

[Polly]

Having taught in high schools for several years I can vouch for the fact the not one gay student who was out of the closet has escaped either teasing (usually the lesbians) or having the shit kicked out of them. (Usually the gay guys) I've never heard of every single chess club member getting beaten up. The national statisics back this up-gay students have all experienced some kind of harrassment and/or violence at school because of their sexual orientation.

Polly

[Jejune]

But what I think gr8mommy is saying is that singling out gay students can further the isolation and separation. No one should be beaten up for any single characteristic (or really at all, but that's another thread), but whether it's being beaten up for being gay or being Jewish or being funny looking, it's not OK, and that policy should be across the board.

I can see a need for special awareness among educators about violence toward gay students, but I'm torn on how it should be handled, because NO ONE should be attacked for, well...being.

[Lori]

I definitely don't think that a "don't make fun of X for being gay" is the way to go. But, I do think that schools need to have a zero tolerance policy about harassing gay and lesbian students. I've subbed at schools that supposedly had general zero tolerance policies about bullying, but not a thing was done to curb the harassment of gay students. I really do think that the hatred of gay and lesbian people is so accepted in our society that people really don't even recognize it as abuse when it happens, and the vast majority of teachers are more than happy to just pretend it isn't happening so that they don't need to rock the boat, and unless it's explicitly address, it will get overlooked.

[gr8mommy]

Thank you, Kristen, that is my point exactly.

Lori, the problem at the schools that you speak of isn't about the harassment of the gay students, but about lack of enforcement of the policy. Are ALL other instances of bullying dealt with according to the policy? Does it also depend on who is doing the bullying, i.e., the son of a prominent family, or the daughter of a school board member? Do they look the other way at other times, or truly only when it is a gay student being targeted? If that IS the case that only when the victim is gay does the school look the other way, the parties responsible for enforcement need to be reprimanded.

In my view, singling out any one characteristic makes those kids more of a target, not less. Zero tolerance needs to apply in all cases, and for all students.

[Lori]

ITA that zero tolerance has to apply in all cases. But I also think that hatred of gay people is so pervasive in our society that many students honestly have no idea that certain behaviors are unacceptable. I do believe that, in most cases, a teacher would say something if a student described something they didn't like as "retarded." But, students refer to things they don't like as "gay" all the time, and nothing is said. And an atmosphere is created in which, because homosexuality can never be acknowledged, the harassment of gay and lesbian students isn't addressed.

I have a friend who was working in a very conservative school district who actually got in trouble for telling his students that it was unacceptable to use the term "gay" to describe things they didn't like. The principal felt that, in doing so, he was not respecting the morals of the parents. (There was also the implication made that he must himself be gay because he took offense to the term, which is not true, but shows how completely skewed people's views around this can be.) That just makes no sense to me, because I'm not sure whose morality makes it acceptable to demean other people or to make other people feel like crap. But I've seen cases like that over and over, where the right of parents to instill whatever morality they want about sexuality in their children is taken to mean that schools must do nothing when a student is harassed or abused or tormented because of their perceived sexual orientation. As an issue of morality, the well-being of students must always come before any parent's ideological commitments, and I think that needs to be explicitly spelled out, or else the problem will be ignored. Maybe in an ideal world it wouldn't, but in a world where adults routinely scapegoat and slander gay and lesbian people, it's something that far too many teachers and administrators are willing to pretend isn't happening.

[gr8mommy]

There are many meanings to the word 'gay'; when I was a kid we used it to mean nerdy, geeky, loser, unpopular---with no thought to its usage by actual homosexuals. Hell, I remember using it before I even knew there was such a thing as homosexual.

I don't doubt that now there are instances of bias in its usage. I don't think that is the case all of the time.

[Jejune]

What all of this sounds like to me is that staff needs special seminars on risks to gay teens, not that students do. The students already know. There needs to be a zero tolerance policy toward hateful language and behavior and it needs to be enforced. If it is, then kids will get the message.

[Lori]

I'd say that seminars for staff are absolutely needed, but I also think that, at the high school level, "gay" can't be a secret or dirty word, any more than "Muslim" or "black" or "disabled" should be. When I was in school, if problems arose involving race, it was called by its name. The same thing needs to be done with the harassment of students perceived to be gay. There are going to be times--in social studies and literature classes, possibly in sex ed or biology--when the issue of homosexuality is going to come up, as either part of a unit on current events, or as a theme in a book, or by a question asked by a student. And I think that when it does come up, it needs to be dealt with in the same straightforward, non-judgemental manner that any other difference would be dealt with.

Many people who believe that it is wrong to be gay also believe that it is wrong to follow a religion other than the one they follow. And yet I've never heard of anyone having a problem with religious differences being acknowledged and tolerated within the public school classroom. That doesn't mean that teachers are telling students that all religions are equally true and valid, but it does mean that students must recognize that, regardless of whether or not their family things it is immoral/sinful for someone to practice Wicca or Islam or be an atheist, Wiccans and Muslims and atheists exist in the world and deserved to be treated with respect, like anyone else. I think homosexuality needs to be handled in the same way, and when it isn't, it's just giving tacit support to harassment.

[Jejune]

Right. Well, I said upthread, I believe, that homosexuality should be acknowledged. I'll come back to this. I have to run out the door, but I have some thoughts. I think there's a difference in what should be taught to students and what should be taught to staff.

[Lori]

I think there's a difference in what should be taught to students and what should be taught to staff.

Oh, ITA with that. I certainly don't think, for example, that students need to be told that about the suicide rates of gay and lesbian teens, or to be told about the psychological toll that rejection by family and community has on gay teens, but I do think that's very important for staff to know.

[Jejune]

Oh, ITA with that. I certainly don't think, for example, that students need to be told that about the suicide rates of gay and lesbian teens, or to be told about the psychological toll that rejection by family and community has on gay teens, but I do think that's very important for staff to know.

I think we're actually pretty much in agreement, then.

Basically, I think staff should be educated specially on gay and lesbian teens and the challenges they face. But I don't think the public policy at a school should make special mention of gay teens. However, in class, I think the fact that people are gay should be acknowledged, just as the fact that people believe different things should be acknowledged. In terms of sex education, I think homosexuality could be compared to masturbation. Even yet, schools get in trouble for mentioning masturbation, but it obviously has a role and a place in sex ed curriculum, and it can be mentioned as normal and natural without placing a moral value on it.

[Erika]

Kristen, I absolutely agree with you that there should be special staff seminars on sexuality and anti-bullying and harrassment issues.

As for teaching sexuality in a sex-ed class - absolutely and you would be doing students a complete disservice if you don't. They deserve a comprehensive sex education that deals with all aspects and that includes the reality that homosexuality and bisexuality exist and what they are. It is not about discussing whether it is moral or immoral but being honest, open and disspelling myths surrounding it (like the myth that homosexuals are more disease-prone or that it could be catching!).

It honestly scares me that schools have to worry about what the parents think should and shouldn't be taught in PUBLIC schools. Should we stop teaching that the earth is round if there are some parents who are flat-earthers? What about parents who are white supremecists? Should they have a say in what black history is taught?

[gr8mommy]

I don't think that issues of sexuality shouldn't be taught in the classroom simply because I believe that time should be used for academic pursuits.

eta: I also agree strongly with training classes for staff and administrators, and possibly parents as well. The kids that DO pick on others learn it from somewhere.