What do you think about misleading "crisis pregnancy centers"?

[Lori]

I should preface this by saying that I think that centers that are up front about their intentions--by making it clear before a woman walks in the door that they are providing alternatives to abortion--do very good work, by providing pregnant women with support and resources they might not otherwise have.

However, what I'm thinking about are "crisis pregnancy centers" that advertise themselves as presenting women with information about their choices, and then hit them with heavy anti-legal abortion rhetoric and won't provide them with referrals outside of their center or non-ideological information (like telling women that abortions increase breast cancer risk when research has proven that it doesn't). When I was in AZ, I saw a bunch of centers like that, that had the word CHOICE in huge letters on their sign, but that in reality get the woman in there, tell her that abortion is murder, and use a very hard-sell tactic to try to force her into carrying the pregnancy to term and then giving the baby up for adoption. The only "choice" they promote is adoption.

Do you think it's okay for a center to present itself as providing women with objective information about the whole range of alternatives open to her and then push one specific course of action on her as the only right one when she walks in the door? Personally, it seems like outright lying to me, and the whole thing makes me very uncomfortable.

[Christine]

I don't believe they ARE setting themselves up as objective informants. Clearly, if a woman wanted an abortion she wouldn't be going to a place that offered alternatives, she'd be going to an abortion clinic. I would assume that most women going into those places would have already decided they wanted something other than an abortion.

I've been inside one of those "crisis pregnancy centers" and didn't run into any of the "anti-legal abortion rhetoric" that you describe. Have you experienced this first hand?

I went in there for a pregnancy test and the woman was loving and accepting of me the moment I walked in the door. She talked to me about my options and I told her that I was keeping the baby. She dropped it at that. She never pressured me, even before she knew what my choice was or that it had already been made.

I don't think they're lying I think that they are providing a very important service to the women that don't want an abortion but don't know what other CHOICE they have.

[Sarah]

Christine, I think Lori is talking about the centers that do mislead women. Yes, there are some that are on the up and up, and it sounds like the place you went to was one of the good ones.

I just read an article about this in Time magazine. I do think it's wrong for some of the centers to give false and/or misleading information.

[gr8mommy]

I personally think there are centers on BOTH sides that 'mislead' women. There are plenty of clinics that don't show women the ultrasound images that are done before an abortion, because they don't want to 'confuse' them with the images they see--in other words, that the woman will change her mind when she sees it's an actual living being in there.

I think for true choice, women need to be informed about ALL aspects of the procedure, the end result, and other choices that can be made. Unfortunately, there isn't anywhere they can get all of it under one roof.

[Christine]

Oh totally. I have a hard time believing that most abortion clinics are upfront about the devastating emotional, physical and psychological effects of having an abortion.

[Kristi]

No I don't think it is right for them to be misleading and give out false information. They should have to be up front about what they are there for. It would be nice if there were places that really did give women information about ALL of their choices. But I doubt there are many out there that do. Atleast not without leaning towards one or the other of the choices.

[Christine]

You're right. Pretty much any facility out there, on either side, has an agenda.

[Desirae]

I personally think there are centers on BOTH sides that 'mislead' women. There are plenty of clinics that don't show women the ultrasound images that are done before an abortion, because they don't want to 'confuse' them with the images they see--in other words, that the woman will change her mind when she sees it's an actual living being in there.

I think for true choice, women need to be informed about ALL aspects of the procedure, the end result, and other choices that can be made. Unfortunately, there isn't anywhere they can get all of it under one roof.

I completely agree.

[Lori]

I'm not sure that not giving a woman an ultrasound is "misleading" them. Planned Parenthoods, for example, don't have huge budgets--regardless of the myths--and provide low-income women with very good prenatal care. I'd rather see their funds for ultrasounds go to providing women who are carrying their pregnancies to term with ultrasounds to ensure the health of their pregnancy, rather than forcing ultrasounds on women who are sure they want an abortion. Ultrasounds aren't cheap--I only got one my entire pregnancy--and I don't see any ideological agenda behind not routinely providing them before abortions. If a woman wants one before she decides, then I have no problem with her being provided with one, but consider that most women who WANT to carry their pregnancies to term only get one covered by their insurance, it's a big financial burden to put on centers that don't have huge budgets and are providing very low-cost prenatal care to women who need it. I'm also not sure that women are "misled" by not being told that abortion as "devastating" consequences. Studies show that 1 in 3 American women have had abortions or will have one at some point in their lives. Obviously, the vast majority of them, regardless of how easy or difficult they found their abortion, aren't "devastated." The main emotion women feel after abortion is relief, according to studies. Now, it could obviously be argued that the relief they feel is because of what a financial and social burden pregnancy is in our society, and if it wasn't, they wouldn't have chosen an abortion in the first place, but every valid study I've seen (i.e., ones done by professional researchers) has shown that abortion is no more traumatic for women than any other reproductive decision. Pregnancy, after all, can lead to very serious PPD and be highly emotionally devastating, but that isn't true in most cases and certainly isn't a valid reason to tell women not to have babies.

The other issue with ultrasounds is that they are medical procedures. A center that is not medically licensed can by a machine and just show the images to pregnant women, without any sort of ethical guidelines, but that's only because they aren't medical facilities. A medical facility must use ultrasounds in very specific ways. The person giving it has to know what they are doing, and the information gathered has to be presented in medically-appropriate ways. That's why the u/s tech when you go for a medical ultrasound doesn't say much about what they see. They might tell you what the sex is, but that's as far as they'll go with anything medically relevant. They have to wait for someone trained to interpret the images to do so, and any medical facility would have to conform to the same standards. So it's a lot more expensive for a medical facility, that has to conform to certain standards and codes of ethics, to provide ultrasounds than for a non-medical facility to do so. Plus, a medical professional can't say "Hey, there's your baby swimming around!" because that's not a medical interpretation of the image.

I'm just not sure it's true at all that abortion providers have "an agenda." Sure, some may. But I've gone to doctors that provide abortions for my regular OB/GYN care (personally, while I think abortion is something best avoided, I don't think state power or deception should be involved in forcing women to not have them, and I prefer to have my medical care provided by people who respect and support women in the full range of reproductive choices they can make), and none of them are motivated by a desire to have women end pregnancies, but by a desire to provide women with the full range of available services in a safe way. Most abortions don't happen in clinics that only provide abortions, but in centers and by doctors who provide the whole spectrum of reproductive health care for women. The PP midwives I've known are certainly not motivated in any way by a desire to encourage women to end pregnancies.

And, I was talking specifically about misleading center. IMO, if a center has the word "CHOICES" in enormous writing on the poster for their center, they are misleading women if they are going to push one specific option on women and lie to them about the others.

I'm particularly frustrated by this because I have an aunt (by marriage, which is a small comfort ;)) who runs a "crisis pregnancy center," and I see her work as totally immoral. They pretend they are providing a medical service, when nobody who works there has any sort of medical degree. They say they provide "choices," but they try to guilt every single women who comes in into carrying their pregnancies to term, and then signing their babies over to them. They then only adopt the babies out to families who will sign a "statement of faith" affirming a very strict, specific set of beliefs currenly popular among very conservative American Christians. It seems like such an awful sham to me, and not in any way providing women with support or compassion or concern.

Obviously a center that is up-front about providing women with information about alternatives to abortion--and being honest about the fact that one option is keeping the baby yourself, and helping women to find the support they might need to do that--isn't misleading women. But I saw a lot of centers in AZ that very much seemed to be attempting to mislead.

[Lori]

I'm going to apologize for being overly strident. I'm just very protective of most abortion providers, because I've known some, and they provide abortions in the context of practices that provide women with excellent care for whatever reproductive choices they make. They simply are not the greedy, murderous monsters they are made out to be. They perform abortions, and they deliver babies.

I think we are very spoiled, growing up after Roe, and really can't grasp the motivation of doctors who provide abortions as part of their practices, many of whom grew up pre-Roe. When we consider that many abortion providers grew up at a time when more women died every year in this country from illegal abortions than soldiers died fighting in Vietnam, I just don't see any way to ascribe ideological motives to their work, when to them it's a matter of saving women's lives. And to put yourself at risk every single day in order to do work that is keeping thousands of women alive each year who would be dead if nobody did your work is, for me, a noble thing, even though abortion itself is not a noble act.

[Polly]

I think there should be in law in all states requiring all crisis pregnancy centers to post in visible place outside and online their mission statement (saying that they are Pro-Life) and including whether or not they provide abortion referals to clinics or Planned Parenthood. I don't see why states won't do this-they allow money to collected from their "Choose Life" license plates. (Although, the first time I saw those plates, I thought that meant the driver liked the old pop group, WHAM! George Michael used to wear a shirt that said that.) I don't disagree with the license plate program, even though it's state sponsored. Equal opportunity-we pro-choicers just need a catchy plate as well to raise money. I resent the implication that the opposite side of "Choose Life" is some sort of "Kill them All" mentality. I'd be terrified driving behind any car with that on the plate. :offtopic

Back on topic now. I live right near a Catholic church and they have a large sign on the lawn that says, "Pregnant? Need Help?" So many times I have been tempted to call the number and say, "Yes, I'm pregnant and need help. Could you please send someone over to clean my house? Also, I need money for college. Make the check out for $36,000. Thanks." (Really, what pregnant woman doesn't need help? I think the sign is dumb. ) Yes, my thoughts are snarky but I wonder what they'd say? :devious

Polly

[Lori]

I resent the implication that the opposite side of "Choose Life" is some sort of "Kill them All" mentality.

I agree, and I also resent the way that the concept of choice is being appropriated in an effort to take away choice. If "choose life" meant that individuals should make the choice--with the resources they need to help them do so fully available--in as a free a way as any of us can make choices to continue a pregnancy rather than having an abortion, I'd fully support that. It's better to nurture human life in all of its stages and forms than to end it.

But, when "choose life" means harnassing state power to force all women, regardless of their circumstances or religious convictions, to carry all pregnancies to term by making any other choice illegal, then it's a meaningless phrase and a form of violence I'd consider far more problematic than abortion. And, in all honesty, I've only ever seen the phrase used this way, so it means absolutely nothing positive to me. I take it to mean "We want to force you to make the choice we like by making the other options illegal and dangerous and putting your life at risk if you don't go along with us." There is nothing affirming either choice or life in that.

It's like the slogan "women deserve better than abortion." Well, duh. Of course they do. No woman wants to have an abortion. We deserve clear and accurate information about reproduction, access to safe and reliable birth control, and the economic and social support needed to make raising children a viable option. But, how that gets translated into "so abortion should be illegal" boggles my mind. People deserve better than living in cardboard boxes, but if our only response to that idea were to work to make living in cardboard boxes illegal, it would be clear that we didn't actually have any concern for the homeless or really care about their situation. How groups are allowed to get away with something similar around abortion without the utter hypocrisy of it being pointed out is beyond me.

I guess, for me, what it comes down to is that, as problematic as I consider abortion, I consider the anti-legal abortion movement far more problematic. It's just disingenuous to frame the issue as one of whether abortion is good or bad, when what's actually at stake is whether reproductive decisions, no matter what we may think of their morality, should be made by individuals moved by their own conscience, or by the state through the threat of punishment and violence for those who don't submit. Unfortunately, there's no catchy slogan for that. I think most people would agree that there are far too many abortions occurring each year, and that it could go down dramatically if the main reasons women have abortions were addressed (which are about resources, not religion or ideology), but it's also true that there will never be zero. Not ever. And those women who are going to have an abortion regardless of what the law says or what resources are offered still deserve support and compassion, and don't deserve to bleed to death alone and scared. For me, I see nothing contradictory about affirming both that carrying a pregnancy to term is nearly always a better choice AND that women who don't make that choice still deserve support, compassion, and safety, but, again, it can't be reduced into a two or three word catchphrase, so it's not going to make the news or bumperstickers or highway billboards.

[Heather]

First, I'd like to touch on the ultra sound issue with Planned Parenthood. I guess it could be viewed as "forcing" a woman to have an ultrasound, but you Have to look at it from PP's side too. A woman comes in, claims she's 8 weeks pregnant, wants the abortion, jumps through the hoops she needs to and does the counceling, takes the meds, etc. and then they Don't do an u/s before they start the procedure? That would Never work! PP HAS to know exactly how far along the pregnancy is. If it's too early, they need to know since they can't perform them if it's too early in the gestation. And they need to make sure that said patient isn't further along than she thinks(or is stating). So there's the u/s issue. And they Will show the screen to you, if you ask(I can say for the centers here anyway.. not sure how they do with other centers across the country). I think they tend to keep the screen turned away because it's already a tough thing for a person to be going through(I know people out there that disagree with abortion can tend to think that people who have abortions are just frivilous about it and don't care about what they're doing. They do. Most of them have made a hard, hard decision that they never thought they would be in that situation to make and it's not this easy, breezy decision that some people think it is). I do Not believe that they do it purposely so they can keep raking in abortion patients due to patients possibly wanting to change their minds if they see the u/s. I think it's done to keep from upsetting the patient.
As far as crisis pregnancy centers misleading people.. yeah I think that's just wrong... IF they are truly misleading people. Like Christine, I went to one when I was younger, once. And they were very nice, but they didn't have any evidence to show that they were all about choices either. So, they weren't misleading anyone ;). It was a nice center and they were very straight forward on their feelings and what they were about. They even followed up with me later on(they sent me cards a few times- that were addressed to my friends house seeing that I was hiding my 'situation' from the 'rents at the time) to see how I was doing and to let me know that I could come back to talk to someone if I needed to.
But to answer the question, yes. I find it very wrong to put it out there that you're a center that is there for women and that you support all of the choices, when in reality you don't. If a woman is in a crisis pregnancy to begin with, the last thing she needs is someone throwing a bunch of religion at her or being lied to about medical facts(such as the breast cancer thing), just because the people running the center don't believe in abortion. If that is their stance, then they need to omit the usage of the word "choice" or "choices". If they're only offering a couple of choices and not all of them, they need to be upfront about that. A young girl that's found out she's pregnant and is very afraid may go there to find out ALL of her options. And if she's met with resistance and the tables turn after she's there.. that's just not fair to her- esp when she's going to be very confused already.

The choose life thing never really got to me, personally. It's the term "pro-abortion" that makes me see red(followed up with "pro-gay"). But that's another thread for another time.

[Polly]

Maybe public schools should teach the difference between crisis pregnancy centers and clinics like Planned Parenthood as part of Sex Ed. Or as current event in Social Studies.

Polly

[gr8mommy]

Heather, since I made the statement about abortion clinics not wanting to show the woman the ultrasound images, I'd like to make sure you know I wasn't speaking of ALL clinics. Your statements seemed to assume otherwise.

There are indeed 'abortion mills' around today, where the primary goal seems to be to perform as many abortions as possible without regard to health, sanitation, or the well-being of the women who are seeking their services. If you doubt that, just do a google news search on the clinic in Englewood, NJ, which was just shut down due to grossly unsanitary conditions and malpractice which resulted in a woman being in a coma for a month and requiring a hysterectomy because of a botched procedure.

[Lori]

There are indeed 'abortion mills' around today, where the primary goal seems to be to perform as many abortions as possible without regard to health, sanitation, or the well-being of the women who are seeking their services.

And, if abortion were made illegal, the number of places like that would multiply wildly, and women would have no recourse in getting them shut down. The reason that centers like that can be closed down is because women can report them without fear of being arrested. Women seeking abortions were horribly abused before Roe--not just by unsafe conditions but also by practicioners who would rape or sexually abuse them--and they couldn't say a word about it because they were threatened with arrest or punishment. That's the entire reason for Roe in the first place--to make sure that women are protected from unsafe, unsanitary abortion practices. Those are the kinds of clinics that thrived before Roe and that, thankfully, have been largely replaced with safe, sanitary centers and with doctors who perform abortions as part of larger medical practices.

[gr8mommy]

And, if abortion were made illegal, the number of places like that would multiply wildly, and women would have no recourse in getting them shut down. The reason that centers like that can be closed down is because women can report them without fear of being arrested. Women seeking abortions were horribly abused before Roe--not just by unsafe conditions but also by practicioners who would rape or sexually abuse them--and they couldn't say a word about it because they were threatened with arrest or punishment. That's the entire reason for Roe in the first place--to make sure that women are protected from unsafe, unsanitary abortion practices. Those are the kinds of clinics that thrived before Roe and that, thankfully, have been largely replaced with safe, sanitary centers and with doctors who perform abortions as part of larger medical practices.

Agreed. But that has nothing to do with what I said, or with the original post in this thread.

The impression I got from the OP was that the only places misleading information was coming from was crisis pregnancy centers masquerading as places offering information on choice, which many of them don't. I simply was pointing out that the pro-legal-abortion clinics aren't without their own misleading and sometimes dangerous practices.

I do not like abortion, and wish we lived in a world in which it was utterly unnecessary. I understand that there are some instances where it is necessary, and still more where it is unfortunately the best option. I don't think it should be made wholesale illegal. I simply get aggravated when those on the so-called pro-choice side think that no one who supports legal abortion has any but the most pure and altruistic agenda. That isn't the case.

[Heather]

Heather, since I made the statement about abortion clinics not wanting to show the woman the ultrasound images, I'd like to make sure you know I wasn't speaking of ALL clinics. Your statements seemed to assume otherwise.

There are indeed 'abortion mills' around today, where the primary goal seems to be to perform as many abortions as possible without regard to health, sanitation, or the well-being of the women who are seeking their services. If you doubt that, just do a google news search on the clinic in Englewood, NJ, which was just shut down due to grossly unsanitary conditions and malpractice which resulted in a woman being in a coma for a month and requiring a hysterectomy because of a botched procedure.
Ok lol. I was replying more to what Lori had talked about in terms of doing the u/s. I didn't assume anything based off of what you said specifically. If I had, I would've directed it toward you... I was doing more of a generalized thing, but I can see how you would've thought that. And, if I'd assumed anything, I'd probably just ask. I don't always, but try to most of the time :).

And as far as the mills go.. yeah. I'm sure you Are right, sad as it is.. because I know that's one of those things that none of us want to see, no matter what side of the fence you're on. And in No way did I claim that there aren't things like that going on. I was, and you can read my post and see, that I was talking about Planned Parenthood specifically. The rest of it I don't know that much about. But I've been to PP's a few times (and No.. not to go have abortion after abortion) in the past, as have a Lot of my friends. And we've all gone there for a lot of different reasons. In the past I would be bothered by the fire PP comes under, because people only see it as an abortion clinic when they provide so many other services. Granted.. I would hope that the PP's around the country are as good as the ones we have here, though I know they can't all be perfect. As far as these other places.. abortion mills and such.. I've never had experience with one of those places, nor has anyone that I know(at least it's never been mentioned to me) so it's not something I know enough about to discuss. When we were all younger, there were several of us that were working but didn't have medical ins. and PP was the place we would go to if we couldn't afford a normal dr. appt for birth control or anything really, regarding our reproductive health. It's not All about abortions there... at least, not the ones here. As far as I'm aware they're still running a tight ship there, though I haven't been there in years and years.
so that's what I was getting at.